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There's NOTHING in post 119 that says a baby can satisfactorily see and hear. But that isn't what was said. Here's the quote:
Babies normally can hear and respond to sounds even while they are still in the womb well before birth. They are not born deaf. Babies can also normally see. They don't see well because it takes time for the eyes and muscles to develop the ability to focus on things. There's not much to look at in the womb, but they are born to optically see things close up. They are not born blind.
So you think you have got some point to falsify the subject.
Yes, I tell you, do the tests yourself and do not imitate others without reasoning.
Have you considered such observations mentioned by the interpreter? Have you done such tests? Instead, you believed them in these links, and disbelieved the interpreter?
The man was not any doctor nor any child development specailist; he merely read and wrote Arabic. Only what he heard, he spoke to people, not from his own, but what he heard he said, as had the Christ prophesied before, that the man of truth will tell them all that he hear and will not speak out of his own words.
And Jesus told them: If I tell you many things now, you will not understand, but when the truthful one will come, he will make you understand many things.
And yes, I say to you, the baby - contrary to what they claim - does not in fact hear nor see unless after 40 days of age.
And the baby in this respect is like the little cats: born blind, then his sight is formed for him in accordance with the final development of his eyes.
Let the readers do such tests themselves on their sons or grandsons to discover that the man who was not specailist in this field, he gave the correct answer.
Moreover, during this period, the hearing and sight is continuously developing for the baby:
Now let us see what he said in paragraph B
" B- Now do another test to confirm that:
Approach the baby with whom you did the first experiment, and sit near him, on the condition that he has exceeded forty days of age, then shout near him with a low shout; it is enough to sneeze near his head, then you will see him awake and cry because your voice has annoyed him; as if you have stricken him with a stick; for he has started to hear.
Then pass your hand in front on his eyes, and you will see him close his eyes and blink his eyelids; for he has started to see.
Then observe his pupils: you will see his gaze directing towards objects specially to the light.
Then watch him when his mother suckles him, you will see him engulf the nipple of her breast directly and does not move his head as was he doing at the beginning.
From these observations, you will know that, during this short period of time, the hearing, sight and spiritual heart have been formed for the baby; after he was not hearing, not seeing, and after being unable to understand."
So you think you have got some point to falsify the subject.
Yes, I tell you, do the tests yourself and do not imitate others without reasoning.
Have you considered such observations mentioned by the interpreter? Have you done such tests? Instead, you believed them in these links, and disbelieved the interpreter?
The man was not any doctor nor any child development specailist; he merely read and wrote Arabic. Only what he heard, he spoke to people, not from his own, but what he heard he said, as had the Christ prophesied before, that the man of truth will tell them all that he hear and will not speak out of his own words.
And Jesus told them: If I tell you many things now, you will not understand, but when the truthful one will come, he will make you understand many things.
And yes, I say to you, the baby - contrary to what they claim - does not in fact hear nor see unless after 40 days of age.
And the baby in this respect is like the little cats: born blind, then his sight is formed for him in accordance with the final development of his eyes.
Let the readers do such tests themselves on their sons or grandsons to discover that the man who was not specailist in this field, he gave the correct answer.
Moreover, during this period, the hearing and sight is continuously developing for the baby:
Now let us see what he said in paragraph B
" B- Now do another test to confirm that:
Approach the baby with whom you did the first experiment, and sit near him, on the condition that he has exceeded forty days of age, then shout near him with a low shout; it is enough to sneeze near his head, then you will see him awake and cry because your voice has annoyed him; as if you have stricken him with a stick; for he has started to hear.
Then pass your hand in front on his eyes, and you will see him close his eyes and blink his eyelids; for he has started to see.
Then observe his pupils: you will see his gaze directing towards objects specially to the light.
Then watch him when his mother suckles him, you will see him engulf the nipple of her breast directly and does not move his head as was he doing at the beginning.
From these observations, you will know that, during this short period of time, the hearing, sight and spiritual heart have been formed for the baby; after he was not hearing, not seeing, and after being unable to understand."
WOW! What a post! I'm quite surprised.
Quote:
Have you considered such observations mentioned by the interpreter? Have you done such tests? Instead, you believed them in these links, and disbelieved the interpreter?
You certainly are a presumptious young scamp. I do not need the links of other or to believe... 'them'. Your posts and links alone are quite sufficient. In fact, I may have been the first to raise a question about your comment that babies are deaf and blind for 6 weeks after birth.
Have I considered such observations? Been there. Done that. I've raised plenty of children who themselves have had children, and have provided grandchildren and a few great-grandchildren. So, yes, I've had more than a few occasions to see such "tests" first-hand from birth throughout all ages of childhood. Such things happen (like startling noises) without needing to deliberately startle babies. I can assure you that none of my offspring have been deaf or blind, and the reaction of the infants have always been quite normal and natural.
Quote:
The man was not any doctor nor any child development specailist; he merely read and wrote Arabic. Only what he heard, he spoke to people, not from his own, but what he heard he said, as had the Christ prophesied before, that the man of truth will tell them all that he hear and will not speak out of his own words.
Once again you reveal that Mohammad-Ali Hassan al-Hilly has no expertise. Okay, it doesn't take an expert to know about babies. But his comments that they are deaf and blind is flat out wrong.
It's interesting that all the threads of yours use him as your primary source of information. You seem to put a great deal of faith and reliance in the man. Now you seem to be comparing him to the Christ by putting him on the same level. Do you regard him as a prophet? It certainly looks like it. Why not compare him to the prophets Moses or Mohammed?
Quote:
And the baby in this respect is like the little cats: born blind, then his sight is formed for him in accordance with the final development of his eyes.
Now THAT'S just plain silly. You're comparing newborn babies with newborn kittens? Have you been playing around with the hooka again? Granted both are mammals, but they're completely different. You might as well compare them with baby aardvarks.
Quote:
Moreover, during this period, the hearing and sight is continuously developing for the baby:
Now let us see what he said in paragraph B
Of course newborn infants are continuously developing. They aren't born as full grown adults. But that still has no bearing on your claim that infants are born deaf and blind. Yes, let's see what paragraph B has to say.
Quote:
B- Now do another test to confirm that:
Approach the baby with whom you did the first experiment, and sit near him, on the condition that he has exceeded forty days of age, then shout near him with a low shout; it is enough to sneeze near his head, then you will see him awake and cry because your voice has annoyed him; as if you have stricken him with a stick; for he has started to hear.
All you're showing by this is that babies are more alert and aware as they get older. There's nothing new about that. However, even an unborn baby in the womb can still react and learn. Read and learn something:
Fetuses Learn not to Be Surprised -- and Researchers Learn from Them (http://www.childup.com/blog/post/2009/07/16/Fetuses-Learn-not-to-Be-Surprised-and-Researchers-Learn-from-Them.aspx - broken link)
Quote:
Then watch him when his mother suckles him, you will see him engulf the nipple of her breast directly and does not move his head as was he doing at the beginning.
Of course. That's how an infant is fed. It's one of the most important needs of a baby in order to grow and live. They instinctively focus their attention to feeding and being nurtured.
It looks like you've never had children, have no idea how they grow, and depend on one person's claims. Or if you have had children, it looks like you haven't paid much attention to them as infants.
The concept of an omnipotent supernatural God, by definition, violates every known law of science and logic.
That is all the proof you need.
If a theory is inconsistant with every thing we know about the way the world works, that theory can safely be discarded - unless you have extrordinary evidece to prove the theory is right.
I've raised plenty of children who themselves have had children, and have provided grandchildren and a few great-grandchildren. So, yes, I've had more than a few occasions to see such "tests" first-hand from birth throughout all ages of childhood. Such things happen (like startling noises) without needing to deliberately startle babies. I can assure you that none of my offspring have been deaf or blind, and the reaction of the infants have always been quite normal and natural.
The subject divides into two parts: the congenitally blind or deaf; i.e. this baby is going to be blind or deaf when he will be older, and all his life.
And the other part is that: all babies are deaf and blind at the start, like the little kittens, then after 40 days of age, he can hear and see.
So we are not dealing with the first category: the congenitally blind or deaf that will keep up as deaf or blind when they become older, and all their lives long.
Our concern is with the second category: that the normal baby is deaf and blind when he is born, then his hearing and sight will develop for him gradually, until he will be able to hear and see when he reaches 40 days of age and over.
Now I ask you a direct question: is the newborn baby (only few hours or few days old) able to see and what can he see at the time of birth?
And what can this newly born baby (only few hours or few days old) hear?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
Now you seem to be comparing him to the Christ by putting him on the same level. Why not compare him to the prophets Moses or Mohammed?
Here your fanatism and enthusiasm about Jesus, has blinded you to see that Jesus was only a human being, and was a man and a son of man, like all people: we are men and sons of man. And Jesus (and all other apostles) ate food, and you know well what is the endresult of food: the dirt in the bowel, which has to be expelled out or if constipation continues it will kill him by the intestinal obstruction.
This is in the Quran 5: 75
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ
The explanation:
(The Messiah [: the Christ], son of Mary, was only a messenger, messengers before him passed away [so why do you glorify him alone, excluding others?]
His mother was a true believer [in the Ten Commandments of her Lord];
[the Messiah and his mother] both ate food [and anyone eats food, has to relieve nature, therefore how could they be gods?]
See [Mohammed] how We make clear the revelations to them; then see how perverted they are [away from the truth!]
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And your enthusiasm about Jesus make you consider him something else than an apostle and a prophet like Moses and Mohammed.
Moreover, all these Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are human beings, and none of them denied it, and even they did not glorify themselves, but they only glorified God Who sent them.
In addition, I did not say that Mohammed-Ali Hassan al-Hilly was a prophet, and he did not tell me that he was any prophet, but he said he was a guide: guiding people to the monotheism and devotion to God alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
You're comparing newborn babies with newborn kittens? Have you been playing around with the hooka again? Granted both are mammals, but they're completely different. You might as well compare them with baby aardvarks.
Comparing newborn babies with newborn kittens is only to bring to mind this fact about the newborn babies do not hear or see at birth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
However, even an unborn baby in the womb can still react and learn. Read and learn something:
Fetuses Learn not to Be Surprised -- and Researchers Learn from Them (http://www.childup.com/blog/post/2009/07/16/Fetuses-Learn-not-to-Be-Surprised-and-Researchers-Learn-from-Them.aspx - broken link)
There has been some exaggeration about such experiments, and they in fact used – as they said – vibrations in addition to sounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
Of course. That's how an infant is fed. It's one of the most important needs of a baby in order to grow and live. They instinctively focus their attention to feeding and being nurtured.
That is your evading: because here the late interpreter of the Quran and the Bible made comparison between the behavior of the baby before and after 40 days old:
When he is about 10 days, he does not see the nipple of his mother's breast; therefore, he moves his head left and right until his mouth comes in touch with the nipple and he then engulfs it.
While when he is 40 days and over, he sees the nipple and does not move his head left and right, but he directly engulfs his mother's nipple and start sucking his milk.
Man after Death
Then from the list of Contents, click on:
The fetus neither hears nor sees
I haven't read the latter part of this thread, but after finishing the first half of it I'm astonished how many people on these forums have died, experienced all sorts of things, and then come back to life here on Earth. After all, that's really the only way some of these claims could be made with such confidence. At least logically.
I haven't read the latter part of this thread, but after finishing the first half of it I'm astonished how many people on these forums have died, experienced all sorts of things, and then come back to life here on Earth. After all, that's really the only way some of these claims could be made with such confidence. At least logically.
The true man is the soul, not the body: the body after death will disintegrate and become soil or dust and return to earth, whereas the soul will endure and last forever in the world of souls.
Jesus Christ said in the Gospel according to Matthew 10: 28
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul."
God - be exalted - said in the Quran 3: 169
وَلا تَحْسَبَنَّ الّذينَ قُتِلُوا في سَبيلِ اللهِ أمْواتاً ، بَلْ أحْياءٌ عِندَ ربِّهِم يُرْزَقُون .
The explanation:
(Think not of those, who are slain in the way of God as dead.
Not so, but they are living in the neighborhood of their Lord [in the heavenly paradises or the kingdom of heavens],
having their provision [from the fruit of these paradises and drinking of their rivers.] )
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Therefore, man does not die, but the death is only for bodies.
It is the soul that drives the body and uses it as a shield to protect him from the external factors, and use it to carry out his purpose, and to go wherever he wants in the life of the World, and to carry heavy loads and to work by means of it all hard work, which he cannot carry out unless by means of the body.
Then when man dies, there will be no need afterwards for the material body, and the soul will be set free in the new world of the afterlife.
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