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Quote me. When did I state Griffin as a Center? I didn't. When did I state he guards Howard? I didn't. I called him a big man. Last I checked he is 6'10 and plays in the 4. The term big men applies to guys that play in both position. Not sure why you got confused here when the same term was applied to Duncan and Dirk by all three parties in another thread.
The topic of discussion has, for the most part, been about Howard's competition at the center spot. Bringing Griffin's name into the equation, was something you did. Yes, power forwards are generally considered big men too, but it was pretty obvious that the term 'bigman', in the context of the debate, was being used in reference to centers that Howard faces in this era. YOU brought up Dirk's name initially because you were trying to respond to my challenge to post dominant bigs coming into the NBA in recent years. You replied by naming people like Dirk, Griffin, Pau Gasol, obviously you'd have hell trying to come up with a list of dominant CENTERS to enter the league and dominate right away, in the last several years.....which was exactly my point. So you brought guys like Griffin and Dirk, players that Howard doesn't match up against, into the equation. Yes, I noticed. Nice try though.
YOU brought up Dirk's name initially because you were trying to respond to my challenge to post dominant bigs coming into the NBA in recent years. You replied by naming people like Dirk, Griffin, Pau Gasol, obviously you'd have hell trying to come up with a list of dominant CENTERS to enter the league and dominate right away, in the last several years.....which was exactly my point.
Yes not denying the fact. But again it had no basis against Howard's competition. It was in response of no dominant "bigs". My stance has always been Howard is more dominant than his competitors. You are preaching to the choir.
As for you guys thinking I said Griffin was Howard comp, please quote my text because again I never made that claim.
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And Tim Duncan is really a center-power forward.
No doubt Tim is built like a Center but he has always up to this point played Power Forward, even in favor of starting a smaller DeJuan Blair at Center.
Yes not denying the fact. But again it had no basis against Howard's competition. It was in response of no dominant "bigs".
Again, the fact that the argument was centered on Howard's competition at the center spot, logically in this context the term 'big-man' would mean 'center'. Think about it; when I talked about Robinson's competition, what names did I write 1000 times? Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mutumbo, Mourning. Did I mention Karl Malone, or Shawn Kemp, or some other power forward from that era? No, I didn't. That should have been all the clue you needed that the term 'big-man', in the context of the argument, was referring to center. But in future, clearly I will have to be very specific when discussing with you.
My stance has always been Howard is more dominant than his competitors. You are preaching to the choir.
And that point has never been disputed by me. My contention has always been how he compares to the 90's greats, and the level of competition he faces compared to those 90's greats.
As for you guys thinking I said Griffin was Howard comp, please quote my text because again I never made that claim.
I didn't say you thought he was Howard's competition. I asked you to name me dominant bigmen to come into the league in recent years. One of your responses was Blake Griffin. As the topic of discussion has always been about centers, Blake Griffin has no business being mentioned. Of course, the fact that I didn't clarify that I meant dominant CENTER( which one would figure is obvious given that the discussion was about CENTERS, but whatever) invited you to throw anyone you could think of to make your argument. Pau Gasol, Dirk, Blake Griffin,... hell Demarcus Cousins. You went reaching for anyone you could, didn't you?
I asked you to name me dominant bigmen to come into the league in recent years. One of your responses was Blake Griffin. As the topic of discussion has always been about centers, Blake Griffin has no business being mentioned. Of course, the fact that I didn't clarify that I meant dominant CENTER( which one would figure is obvious given that the discussion was about CENTERS, but whatever) invited you to throw anyone you could think of to make your argument. Pau Gasol, Dirk, Blake Griffin,... hell Demarcus Cousins. You went reaching for anyone you could, didn't you?
You sure about that... This is the comment that launch the conversation... well my response to that comment.
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Originally Posted by rigas
duncan and shaq are arguably the last 2 "real" low post inside big men.
Note no context of Center but "big men" referring to both a C and a PF.
and here is where it continued...
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Originally Posted by Greg1977
In fact that time period when those guys came out was dominated by the likes of Shaq, Garnett,Duncan, Dirk was emerging etc
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Originally Posted by Greg1977
And really, when I say 'dominant' big coming out of college, I'm talking the Shaquille Oneal/ Tim Duncan instant domination type
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Originally Posted by Greg1977
So, again for clarity sake, when was the last Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan/Ewing/Robinson instant across the board impact bigman to enter the league?
You get the picture.
The discussion started as Howard vs Robinson but went on to discuss a broader perspective of players in this age, not just who guards Howard.
You sure about that... This is the comment that launch the conversation... well my response to that comment.
The first comment you quoted from Rigas has nothing to do with me.
The second comment where I mention Garnett and Dirk, please quote the surrounding paragraph, because I suspect you picked a random comment out of EVERYTHING I've said to make your argument. Even if I happen to have mentioned guys like Garnett and Dirk at some point, it doesn't mean they were a core part of my main argument. My points have mainly, and quite clearly, centered( pun intended) on discussing Howard and his competition today, compared to Robinson and his 90's competition.
Third, the list of Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan/Ewing/Robinson....notice that's primarily a list of centers, and Duncan who is considered a center-forward? There's a reason I specifically have mentioned those names repeatedly. It's because I established the parameters of my argument as talking about centers. Duncan, while listed as a power forward, is as much a center as any of those guys.
At this point you're basically reaching for whatever you can grab at.
Oh WOW Ncospus99, what a disingenius little poster you are. Here is the full paragraph from my quote 'In fact that time period when those guys came out was dominated by the likes of Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Dirk was emerging etc' which you posted earlier:
"Not really, Iverson and Maybury came out in 1996, Steve Francis 1999, Baron Davis 1999. Wasn't even close to the guard's league it is today. In fact that time period when those guys came out was dominated by the likes of Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Dirk was emerging etc.....In reality, it's not so much a 'guard's league as it is a 'perimeter player's one. Small forwards have benefited as well. But it really wasn't until at least 2003, 2004. How else do you explain Steve Nash's sudden emergence from an 'all-star' point guard to winning an MVP award....at 31? It was around that time that the new rules really took hold."
LMAO!!! Pathetic....absolutely, pathetic. This entire quote was from an entirely different argument, where we were talking about the rules favoring guards and it being a guard's league....The reason I brought up Garnett and Dirk's name was because you were making a point about it being a guard's league in the early 2000's, and I countered by saying that time period guys like Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, were dominating the league. Hell, anyone can read that entire paragraph and see it's a totally different discussion from the debate about centers. This has NOTHING to do with the argument regarding Howard, Robinson and their respective competition. NOTHING AT ALL. TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT ARGUMENTS. So what you did was, you painstakingly went through all my old posts, in order to find an occurrence where I mentioned players other than centers, just to say 'AHA see! You were talking about players other than centers!' Yeah I was at one point.... in a DIFFERENT argument! Hell, that quote was from July 11th, and from another thread!!!
So yeah, you are officially a troll. And you can't even do that right. Getting personal? At this point you deserve to be called out. Pathetic. Rigas, don't even waste your time with this guy. Strawman arguments, puts words in your mouth, twists words.... classic troll behavior.
can i have that 15 seconds of my life back please?
You are the one that went on for a page in this thread questioning the validity of a highlight package... not I.
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Originally Posted by Greg1977
The first comment you quoted from Rigas has nothing to do with me.
It does, even though you didn't say it. It launched my first comment mentioning Howard in particular, which then brought in your discussion with me on Robinson vs Howard.
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Duncan, while listed as a power forward, is as much a center as any of those guys.
Duncan has always and will finish his career playing Power Forward, no matter what you think of his body type in best suited for. He doesn't guard Centers for the most part. Even more, that he is 100% a Power Forward.
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This entire quote was from an entirely different argument, where we were talking about the rules favoring guards and it being a guard's league.... *edit out* ... This has NOTHING to do with the argument regarding Howard, Robinson and their respective competition. NOTHING AT ALL. TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT ARGUMENTS.
Good so you recognize there were different arguments other than the original one of Howard vs Robinson. All these comments were referenced to show that a different discussion occured, in which PFs were used in the term big men. In addition, they were also used as that part of the argument that occured talking about what great Big Men came out of college. None of which had any barring of who guards Howard.
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Yeah I was at one point.... in a DIFFERENT argument! Hell, that quote was from July 11th, and from another thread!!!
Again Quote Me. When did I say Griffin guards Howard? You can't, thus you go on this personal rant.
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So yeah, you are officially a troll. And you can't even do that right. Getting personal? At this point you deserve to be called out. Pathetic. Rigas, don't even waste your time with this guy. Strawman arguments, puts words in your mouth, twists words.... classic troll behavior.
I called it like I saw it. You trash players in one thread but praise them in another. If you call that trolling, then it is. My argument has been consistent, yours hasn't. No need to debate it.
Duncan has always and will finish his career playing Power Forward, no matter what you think of his body type in best suited for. He doesn't guard Centers for the most part. Even more, that he is 100% a Power Forward.
It has nothing to do with body type, and everything to do with his role on the floor. He switches between the two positions, on both ends of the floor, and depending upon the situation. Ask Rigas, he's the Spurs fan. He'll set the record straight on that.
Good so you recognize there were different arguments other than the original one of Howard vs Robinson. All these comments were referenced to show that a different discussion occured, in which PFs were used in the term big men. In addition, they were also used as that part of the argument that occured talking about what great Big Men came out of college. None of which had any barring of who guards Howard.
I mentioned Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett just to show that the league in the early 2000's wasn't dominated by guards. While in that context,you can throw them into the pot as 'Bigmen'( notice I didn't use the term in the quoted paragraph), when it came to the debate about Howard vs Robinson, I was quite clear that I was referring to bigmen, in the context of the argument, as centers. And even if it wasn't initially clear to you, I've clarified the point repeatedly since. You lack the ability to put anything into context. Which would explain why you posted that quote earlier, which referenced a totally different conversation, and tried to relate the two.
Again Quote Me. When did I say Griffin guards Howard? You can't, thus you go on this personal rant.
I didn't say you said Blake guards Howard. Once I had established the parameters of my argument as talking about centers, Griffin had no business being in the discussion.
I called it like I saw it. You trash players in one thread but praise them in another. If you call that trolling, then it is. My argument has been consistent, yours hasn't. No need to debate it.
And I'm calling it like I see it now. I haven't trashed Dwight Howard in the least. I've said that his offensive game needs work, and that his competition this era is below Robinson's. That's not trashing. And in the context of the argument regarding Howard vs the Bulls bigs, I didn't praise him either. I mainly said he has an advantage over the Bulls bigs, but they are one of the few teams that have the size to at least make him work. So, there's been no trashing or praising one way or another.
You are incredible consistent, in strawman arguments, misinterpreting, andputting words in our mouths.And now that Rigas has joined the debate in the last few days, he can see that as well.
Though again, I never got personal...
Cry me a river with the boo-hoo act. It's lame.
In fact, I wish that you'd put me on your ignore list. Or I will, but I'm sick of the debate.... and you.... at this point.
This sums up the situation for you well enough.
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