I Can No Longer Accept Universalism. It Seems Jesus Was Right About "Only a Few" (Moses, prayer)
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Darkness is used as a metaphor for death in scripture.
11 My days are past , my purposes are broken off , even the thoughts of my heart. 12 They change the night into day: the light is short because of darkness. 13 If I wait , the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:11-13
5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out , and the spark of his fire shall not shine . 6 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him. Job 18:5-6
16 His roots shall be dried up beneath, and above shall his branch be cut off . 17 His remembrance shall perish from the earth, and he shall have no name in the street . 18 He shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world. Job 18:16-18
Outer Darkness was Jesus way of saying they would come to nothing.
It also indicates a lack of knowledge or sight, equally that of blindness.
The jew tax was one step above slavery and any who couldn't pay were enslaved. Only a born roman citizen could vote for senate. Look at the diferance in which paul was treated. Of course jesus referred to them as dogs they lived as the animals endulging in gratification of the flesh. ok maybe not equals just created the same. Also as I tell my students it also proves we can take one hell of a punch.
Big V .
Jesus clearly said you must have the faith of a mustard seed and works without faith are dead. He is incapable of lying.I'm sorry you dont have the faith. There is also keeping to the law., the whole thing not just that which is comfotable. I have seen miracles the sick healed , prayer answerd. Most don't listen or mis the point.
I will give you just one small example which you might believe. I was camping with my family and some of my students when we were swarmed by mosquitos one of the most horrible attacks short of hornets i've been in. As we hurried to build up the fires so we could smoke them down I was cursing and praying in the same breath" and eating a few all the while" during my prayer I asked why lord why did you create such a nusance as to feed on us . I no sooner finished my prayer than I witnessed the single largest fish I have ever seen breach the water into a cloud of mosquitos. Hmmmmmm an answer to prayer or coincedence. Me I'm a faith guy so you no where I stand
The Jew tax was simply a tax to retain their identity as "non-Roman." It was their choice to rebel against Jupiter's conquest against YHWH and countless military defeats at the hands of the armies of more powerful Rome and a final surrender by their leaders, to which those racist terrorists (back in those ignorant times) kept on not following the concessions of. The Jew tax was a joke really. It was equivalent to the tax they used to pay for the destroyed Jewish Temple. Their taxes were not increased at all. The tax was justified in that Jews refused to integrate their children into the conquering culture, which causes segregation and civil war... the only other answer would have been to wipe them out completely... something that the Jews (according to their history) might have done themselves, but the Romans were more civilized than that. In retrospect the "jew tax" served not to make them stop being jews but instead to be angry at the Romans for taxing them for a temple they didn't support... it would have been easier to simply integrate the jewish culture slowly into the Roman parthanon, by providing education to jewish children for free in public schools. A showdown of gods, as in the "jewish mythical history books" would have likely only proven that no gods exist... that would be bad... for the ignorant moral of the general populous.
To what you said to Big V,
Jesus said that those who have faith as a mustard seed can move mountains, and that faith without works is dead, He was very capable of lying for he said "The Kingdom of God will come in your generation". 20 generations later, here we are. What a pitiful kingdom indeed. I'm sure the Muslims are sorry you don't have the faith, and the Hindus are sorry you both don't have the faith, vainly seeking to live forever you make objects of your selves and insult your own minds. I have seen the prayers of Muslims and Hindus be answered, and their sick are healed just like the atheists as well. You mean to tell me the poor fish lost its free will to your tyranny? I somehow doubt that. If your prayer had ended the need for mosquito females to feed on blood then perhaps your miracle would have meant something for humanity. as it stands it is just as empty and void as the miracles that unrefined jews and pagans worshiped Jesus as a saint/prophet/god for.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 06-24-2012 at 03:12 AM..
Hey luminous do you know of a link to the entire gnostic text for free? All I have been able to find for free are just splinters.
thx and sorry off topic.
I haven't read it all, if there is a full one. I like that it talks about crazed gods who believe they are creators of the universe when they are not, just like Buddhist theology. I also like that it talks about spirituality in a deeper lever than the other four gospels... Persecutions within the self, as a great way to become children of God. I also like the insertion of the Mother of El as the actual original creator. I read some snips from sacred-texts.com, but it almost compares to the spirituality and genious of Hindu texts.
ShanaBrown, Mr5150 **adulterates** the Word of God. How so? It is adultery when you join a woman with a man who is already married to another woman. When you join a foreign idea to God's Word it is adultery and thus adulterating the Word of God.
2Co_4:2 But we spurn the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor yet adulterating the word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in God's sight."
It is a shameful thing to adulterate the word of God. But some don't even realize they are doing that because they've been so indoctrinated by their pastors that it is NORMAL to do.
When the wicked are judged and cast into the lake they will ultimately die. That is eternal. They will never live again. That is the state of "outer darkness".
I believe that all death is to be made of no effect one day, including the second death. Many will experience the second death, but I believe that it is for a higher purpose. The wickedness in people is what is to be dealt with and I believe that this is related to the judgments of God and the lake of fire. In the end, Jesus is to destroy all rule, power, and authority, and death will no longer exist when all are given life. There will no longer be any wicked persons when sin and death are abolished. The old man must die in each of us. As Ttrep once shared, death is destroyed by putting on life. Wickedness is destroyed by putting on righteousness. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-24-2012 at 06:42 AM..
thrillobyte,
Learning and understanding the truth does not come over night.
As you have come to realize, Jesus went around and preached.. repent, believe (have faith) in me, or condemnation (God's wrath) by God will occure to those who reject. Matthew 25:41-45 is not a fictional alternative ending.
But as you continual to let God's Word speak to you, what you will find how "death" and what occures afterwards is taught also.
Jesus says only the believer who dies physically doesn't "die" John 11:26
Jesus said "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”John 8:51
The point is that when a person does not "keep my word" ... the person is going to see something.
One can't be "soul-sleeping" when he is "seeing death".
Thus physical death to the believer is a "rest \ asleep" in the Lord. The body is only at rest in the grave, not the soul.
The Lord did not "soul-sleep" in the grave.
He went to hell and preached to the souls there, a message of condemnation.
The Lord lives...he is not "soul-sleeping"... the Lord went home at his accension
Paul writes: 2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be awayfrom the body and at home with the Lord.
If you were a defense attorney and you had a client facing life in prison, you know the Law, wouldn’t you seek a way using the law to allow your client to escape those charges resulting in life in prison or at least have the sentence reduced, if it were at all possible. Surely you would not be looking for a way to put your client in jail and make them serve a tougher sentence. If you were seeking to put your client in jail, then you are either the worst attorney ever and cannot be trusted or you a really a prosecutor.
If you are a doctor and your patient is sick would you not seek for a way to heal him, if it were at all possible, or would you let him die.
God said Matthew 7:7-8
Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be open unto you:
For everyone that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be open.
1 Corinthians 10:24
Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.
1 Corinthians 10:13
There is no temptation taken to you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
There are verses which suggest God is saving everyone and there are verses which could also suggest he is not saving everyone. If we truly loved each other with the love of God, from which direction would we seek? Would we seek from the side which most people aren’t being saved or would we seek from the side that everyone will be saved. I am not saying to ignore any part of the word but keep in mind that God’s word is still understood to be in parables to which the wisdom of this world cannot understand. I would assume that things aren’t always as they seem. From what I gather, God said if we seek we will find and we should seek the wealth of another. How will my brother be rich if he is poor? In other words, how will my brother be saved if he does not believe and God requires belief in order to be saved? If you seek, God will show the way out without going against his law for he always with the temptation that is common to man, make a way to escape. Why would you seek it from the end of eternal destruction and be satisfied with that?
The thought of any one suffering eternal torment is so unimaginable to me. I would not want that for my worst enemy. I know that me being evil, if I am able to not want that for some else how much more does God who is good and all love, want that for anyone. I know that I am not better than he is, or more kind than he is or more merciful than he is.
Luminous is it so far of a stretch to think that the entity that created all things could at any moment send an impulse to make a fish jump to answer a question. It was a small something that came to mind ,for some small miracles are easier to believe than large ones. Would it have been better to say that I had laid hands and healed the sick with prayer. As far as what I personally believe that is an extremely complicated answer, better served perhaps outside the venue of christianity. What I believe comes afer a lifetime of searching through it all. As far as quoting holy scripture I have met satanist's who could qoute the bible better than most christians. I am a simple pathfinder who wades through the confusion of man and seeks GOD, The Creator, The Great Spirit. To seek out the words of those he has sent and to myself strive to follow them. I do NOT believe in group salvation only you can save yourself. I dont see the need to join any congregation or organization as I generally get into enough trouble by myself. I wouldn't want to be the shepard who led the flock astray.
The thought of any one suffering eternal torment is so unimaginable to me. I would not want that for my worst enemy. I know that me being evil, if I am able to not want that for some else how much more does God who is good and all love, want that for anyone. I know that I am not better than he is, or more kind than he is or more merciful than he is.
Better for Jesus to speak the truth since he knows what happens than for the those who have a problem with the truth attempt to conjure up an alternative.
"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”
"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
When Jesus explained The Parable of the Weeds ....his last statement about it was "He who has ears, let him hear." So when it came to The Parable of the Net where Jesus said:
When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
When Jesus asked the disciples: “Have you understood all these things?”
They (like thrillobyte) said simply: “Yes"
One of the luxuries of being retired is having the time to pursue studying the Bible. After many weeks of intense study on the topics of Universal redemption and annihilation I must conclude that Jesus said or inferred on more occasions than not that most of us would be lost--that is, that only a few would make it through the narrow door, which is, of course, Jesus Himself. I know He said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to Myself" but that doesn't make up for the two times He said "Many will take the broad road to destruction", "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord...", "The Good Shepherd Gives His Life (only) for His Sheep", "Unless you repent you will perish", etc. I think the word, "draw" implies maybe "attract" but certainly not draw as in irresistibly pull without power to resist. The bottom line is that Jesus warned more about missing the boat, then He did spreading sugar-coated niceties that everything was fine; that He had it all under control and we had nothing to worry about. In fact, we do have plenty to worry about and He didn't mince words letting us know on innumerable occasions.
The good news though, is that even if only a few find the way to heaven through the narrow door, we won't be suffering the torments of hell in the meantime. While we have debated innumerable times here about the three doctrines of eternal destiny, the overwhelming weight in terms of sheer numbers of verses falls to eternal destruction for the wicked. The Scriptures seem to heavily support soul-sleep until the final resurrection. It will be like precisely one second after those who are saved close their eyes in death they will awaken to the resurrection with new immortal bodies. The lost will later awaken in the same way to be thrown into the fire that destroys utterly. That is what the Scriptures indicate to me. If other feel differently I'd be interested in hearing your POV.
There was a pasture which had a fence all around it so that no one could enter. The pasture was beautiful, and outside the pasture lived some goats. There were skinny goats and there were fat goats which had eaten all the food…too fat to pass through the narrow gate. The owner promised the goats that he would one day free them from the wilderness and allow them to graze in the pasture.
Before the owner returned to open the gate, the fat goats climbed over the fence instead of going through the gate because the gate was locked, and too narrow for them to pass through. The fence was wide and easy to climb over. They even encouraged the other goats to also jump the fence, telling them they needed to get on the right side of the fence because it was good land. They planned the destruction of the goats that were on the other side of the fence by telling them they would die because they would not jump the fence also. The other goats ignored them; they did not believe.
These goats which had jumped the fence were thieves, they only wanted to steal, kill and destroy. When the owner returned, he changed the goats which were outside the fence to be in his image, just as he had promised. He humbled the goats by feeding them…teaching them his word, and destroying their aggressive nature by cutting it away and burning it in the fire making them sheep. He then opened the gate, and called them to come to him and receive the inheritance. They listened and how they praised him!!! But then he looked, and saw in his pasture some unruly, disobedient, fat goats, who could not wait for him to do the work in them and open the gate, but instead wanted to receive the good pasture before their proper time.
The gatekeeper asked them what they were doing on this side without the proper clothes…they surely didn’t look like sheep, but instead they looked like goats. They said to him Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works, we made it on the right side of the fence by receiving your gift of the pasture.
The gatekeeper then looked at them and said get away from me you worker of iniquity who disobeyed me by not waiting for me to let you in through the gate, humbling you and making you my sheep…All this time you received the good things while the others you left outside the fence starved, now they will be comforted and you will be tormented. You will have to go back out to the other side and come in through the gate as the other goats which were changed to sheep. There was weeping and gnashing of teeth. For who is first will be last and whoever is last will be first.
Unbelievers don’t call him Lord…only Christians do.
Unbelievers don’t prophesy in the name of Christ…only Christians do.
Unbelievers don’t cast out devils in the name of Christ…only Christians do.
Unbelievers don’t do many wonderful things in the name of Christ…only Christians do.
Who is the worker of iniquity not wanting to wait on the Holy Spirit to give them and their fellow brothers the gift of faith but instead think they can receive it on their own and condemn everyone else who did not take it for themselves?...only Christians do!
Wait for each other! Wait for the Lord!
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