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I am saying it sounds silly to insinuate that the scripture at hand is purposely to show David and Jonathon in a Homosexual relation.
Had the author purposely written this to show a Homosexual relationship, not only would the New Testament deal with it, the prophets would have had to deal with it, or it would have simply been omitted, it doesn't make any logical sense that it was made to show any kind of sex, and had there been just a sliver of doubt, it would have had to been dealt with, especially in the New Testament, and especially by the prophets of David, and it would have been rationalized in the Psalms. Understand what the repercussions would be had the author intended anyone to take this as Homosexuality. Let us also not forget that everything is written of David, the whole of the book is of him.
The OT “hero’s” did a whole lot of stuff that was inappropriate or deemed inappropriate in that time and culture according to the authors. They sure didn’t shy away from recording all the juicy details, so why would the David and Jonathan love affair not be included?
I am saying it sounds silly to insinuate that the scripture at hand is purposely to show David and Jonathon in a Homosexual relation.
Had the author purposely written this to show a Homosexual relationship, not only would the New Testament deal with it, the prophets would have had to deal with it, or it would have simply been omitted, it doesn't make any logical sense that it was made to show any kind of sex, and had there been just a sliver of doubt, it would have had to been dealt with, especially in the New Testament, and especially by the prophets of David, and it would have been rationalized in the Psalms. Understand what the repercussions would be had the author intended anyone to take this as Homosexuality. Let us also not forget that everything is written of David, the whole of the book is of him.
Except, Hanni, the term Saul used when berating Jonathan (in the book of Samuel) over his relationship with David was (paraphrased, I'm not looking it up) "you have uncovered your mother's nakedness."
Now in every instance when mother or father's "nakedness" is used, there is a sexual connotation. It doesn't necessarily mean that Jonathan was gay (I think he was and that David was bi), but it leaves room for doubt to exist about a "straight" Jonathan.
In addition, Jonathan gave David his armor, sword, and shield, all the vestments of power that a Prince would have to show his authority.
Imagine the twentieth century version of that---the associate pastor of a large church gives the new young deacon his best suit of clothes, the keys to his 4x4 pickup, and his prized shotgun!!! What might the pastor himself think? What might the congregation think?
Point is--there is doubt and none of us can be for certain Jonathan was NOT gay. The only person who IS certain, is one who just doesn't read the Bible carefully and thoughtfully. Fundies have a Sunday School view of Scripture and none of them would ever bring a brain to peruse the Bible. There pagan religion DEMANDS that they be certain.
I go to a weekly Bible study. There are about eighteen members—-I am the only one who is NOT a fundie. The reference in their study book claims they believe the Bible (in its non-existent originals) is inerrant. In three weeks they already are looking askance at some of my points about the letter to Romans. But I have no problem voluntarily walking into the lion’s den because I know God is with me.
Look up Community Bible Studies—-they are a fundie group with meetings all over the country.
I can’t see you hosting gays for a bible study at your church. I doubt you even have fortitude to recommend your church do so.
Some of us have the courage of our convictions.
I don't believe he goes to church, not there is anything wrong with that. Sadly fundamentalists are created the moment they begin attending the so called bible believing churches. They are warned not to question the word of God(they forget to mention how they interpret it), it is inerrant and infallible, so that is the only conviction they hold to and man are they resolute in it. They believe because they are told it is, it is not thought through to make their own minds up about it and any descrepancies they see in it are simply ignored. So they are grounded in believing the bible is inerrant and infallible, and then they are encouraged to quit sinning(Something Jesus did not teach, he taught the way of righteousness) and go out and save the world, and call out the sin of the world it focuses on.
To the more conservative Christians among us ...what's the big deal if David and Jonathan were involved in an intimate relationship? Are you SO walking on eggshells that you can't bring yourselves to acknowledge that two guys from scripture just might have fallen for one another (apparently) big time? Again, so what if they did?
Moreover, while John Shelby Spong has never said that Paul was a homosexual, he (Spong) has reasons to believe - from scripture of course - that Paul MAY have had homosexual tendencies and that this might have been the 'thorn in his flesh' he refers to in 2 Corinthians 12:1-10. If there were serious questions raised regarding Paul's sexuality, would this send the 'fundies' scurrying into damage control? So what if Paul may have been gay?
And if the liberals who support gay relationshiips should realize that there was no such relationship among those they suspect might have, would it make any difference whatsoever?
Except, Hanni, the term Saul used when berating Jonathan (in the book of Samuel) over his relationship with David was (paraphrased, I'm not looking it up) "you have uncovered your mother's nakedness."
Now in every instance when mother or father's "nakedness" is used, there is a sexual connotation. It doesn't necessarily mean that Jonathan was gay (I think he was and that David was bi), but it leaves room for doubt to exist about a "straight" Jonathan.
In addition, Jonathan gave David his armor, sword, and shield, all the vestments of power that a Prince would have to show his authority.
Imagine the twentieth century version of that---the associate pastor of a large church gives the new young deacon his best suit of clothes, the keys to his 4x4 pickup, and his prized shotgun!!! What might the pastor himself think? What might the congregation think?
Point is--there is doubt and none of us can be for certain Jonathan was NOT gay. The only person who IS certain, is one who just doesn't read the Bible carefully and thoughtfully. Fundies have a Sunday School view of Scripture and none of them would ever bring a brain to peruse the Bible. There pagan religion DEMANDS that they be certain.
I am certain he wasn't gay, if there was any chance that he was, I wouldn't mind admitting it, again, sounds very silly. Jonathon was to be king, he recognized David as King and gave up everything for David.
It's something you would see in a Christian forum where everything goes, it wouldn't fly anywhere else.
I understand you might be mistaken about what Saul says in berating Jonathon.....But mistaken you are, it has nothing to do with sex. Jonathon gave up his kingdom to a person not of his family and not of his tribe, there is NO WAY POSSIBLE to make that scripture about sex.
Again, this is a Christian thing, it is people discussing a religion they are not in, and a people they don't understand.
The OT “hero’s” did a whole lot of stuff that was inappropriate or deemed inappropriate in that time and culture according to the authors. They sure didn’t shy away from recording all the juicy details, so why would the David and Jonathan love affair not be included?
If David and Jonathon were in a love affair, it would certainly be included, nobody is above breaking any laws, I am just stating the facts that there was no homosexual relation between David and Jonathon, there is nothing that even suggests such a thing, and if they would have been gay, I would have no problem admitting it, but there is no insinuation of such a love affair, that scripture has nothing to do with a gay relationship.
If David and Jonathon were in a love affair, it would certainly be included, nobody is above breaking any laws, I am just stating the facts that there was no homosexual relation between David and Jonathon, there is nothing that even suggests such a thing, and if they would have been gay, I would have no problem admitting it, but there is no insinuation of such a love affair, that scripture has nothing to do with a gay relationship.
My gut feeling is there wasm't a homosexual relationship going on, but it is hard to deny that it reads like that.
I cannot express how impossible it would to be for the author to purposely mean that David and Jonathon were in a sexual relationship, we are discussing the impossible. Could David have had homosexual affairs?
YES, but there isn't a single place in the bible that insinuates such a thing and I can't express how silly it is to think the author meant you to see a homosexual relationship.....
I cannot express how impossible it would to be for the author to purposely mean that David and Jonathon were in a sexual relationship, we are discussing the impossible. Could David have had homosexual affairs?
YES, but there isn't a single place in the bible that insinuates such a thing and I can't express how silly it is to think the author meant you to see a homosexual relationship.....
Wait. You say it’s impossible but then you say it’s possible.
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