Regarding the Pre-Tribulational Rapture (eternal, Hebrew, Greek, Romans)
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Since we speak English, we generally use English words in communicating. Therefore we use the word 'Rapture' which comes from the Latin word-'RAPTURO', which comes from the Greek word 'harpageEsometha' or 'harpazo,' which means 'shall-be-being-snatched-away'-to seize or to carry off. Or simply, to be 'caught up'.
1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up-'harpageEsometha'-or 'harpazo'- to seize or to carry off'-'raptured' together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Now since I speak English, I prefer to say 'rapture' instead of 'harpageEsometha.' Either way, it refers to the event spoken of in 1 Thess. 4:15. The pre-Tribulational Rapture.
"and remain until the coming of the Lord"
Paul is clearly talking about what is referred to as the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Paul is clearly talking about what is referred to as the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Look at the differences between 1 Thess. 4:13-18 (rapture), and Revelation 19:11-16 (second Advent).
Look at Revelation 19:7. This is the Church in Heaven after she has been raptured (resurrected). The marriage of the Church to Christ has taken place. And now, in Revelation 19:9, the marriage supper is being addressed. This takes place back on earth after the second advent. The Church (bride) returns to the earth with Christ.
Look at John 14:1-3. This is the rapture. Not the second Advent.
Since we speak English, we generally use English words in communicating. Therefore we use the word 'Rapture' which comes from the Latin word-'RAPTURO', which comes from the Greek word 'harpageEsometha' or 'harpazo,' which means 'shall-be-being-snatched-away'-to seize or to carry off. Or simply, to be 'caught up'.
1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up-'harpageEsometha'-or 'harpazo'- to seize or to carry off'-'raptured' together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Now since I speak English, I prefer to say 'rapture' instead of 'harpageEsometha.' Either way, it refers to the event spoken of in 1 Thess. 4:15. The pre-Tribulational Rapture.
The word "Rapture" is a non-Biblical category used by racial dispensationalists in their doctrinal system which contains various things, select parts of the Bible on certain things included or excluded depending on which non-Biblical authority you consult, and things absolutely NOT in the Bible, but from human tradition. These are all stirred up together in that one category of "The Rapture." If this word was in the Bible you would have long, long ago quoted a Scripture to confirm its use. You only defend your preference for the traditions of men used to make useless the Holy Word of God. The Medieval Latin (700 to 1500 AD) for "rapture" was used to refer to levitating during prayer. (It is useless to defend such experiences to the unbelieving minds of those who pray little or not all and what they do pray is amiss. For those intimate with God no defence is needed.)
There is NO harpageEsometha in the passage your refer to. In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously." Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"
Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)
From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own." The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come back out of. It is not about a geographical relocation but a transformation.
Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it." In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T. They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination. Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.
Several ideas not in the text but inserted by men are "going up" like levitation, instantaneous, and, a specially loathsome deception, the idea of the removal of the racially Gentile Church. These things are just NOT in the Bible.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 11-08-2009 at 09:03 PM..
See if you can focus on just one idea, like "the removal of the Church." This is how to determine for yourself what to believe or not. Locate somewhere in the Bible that such a thing is stated, maybe in other words, like "the Church will disappear," or,"the Church will be taken away," or, something like it. You can't get it out of any concordance, online or hard copy. It is not an idea with Biblical authority for us to believe.
Some try to teach it from Matthew 24 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Mt+24 - broken link) in a passage that begins: "...as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man..." Matt 24:37 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Mt+24%3A37 - broken link) (ASV) And it continues: "...they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left..." Matt 24:39-40 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Mt+24%3A39-40 - broken link) (ASV) Noah knew. As can be demonstrated elsewhere in Scripture, specially about the times of the ends of an age, the wicked did not know. They wouldn't believe what Noah knew. "...none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Dan 12:10 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Da+12%3A10 - broken link) (KJV)
Who was removed in the days of Noah? The wicked were swept away by the flood. Who was left behind to inherit the Earth? The meek who had come under the discipline of the Lord.
Here are some differences between Racial Dispensationalism's Eschatology and what Scripture says:
They propose the (racially) gentile believers are going to disappear at any moment. Scripture says a generation that has Christ within will appear with Him in glory. All of creation is in travail, NOT for the "disappearance," but for the "manifestation" of the sons of God.
They're ready to leave. We're getting ready to stay.
They're expecting Satan and the anti-christ to take over. We're expecting the "judgment to sit and rule to be given to the saints of the Most High (El-Elyon.)"
I believe God is at work to bring forth from the Church a company of Overcomers who are victorious over everything destroying mankind, even death. Enough of them will enter sufficient maturity to become the determining factor among the affairs of all mankind, not through political maneuvers or force of carnal arms, but by reason of being a superseding superior specie: immortal and incorruptible. As the Royal Priesthood of the Mechisadek Order they rule by the anointing, the manifest presence of God.
Those not being taught of the Holy Spirit, who even reject it, while possibly comparable to children playing in the sandbox, they cannot be thought to be entering into the salvation ready to be revealed in the close of the age.
Our aim is not some relocation in space or a better hope in death. It is to have Christ fully formed in us and to fully come into the Image of God. This is not only as individuals, but corporately. "...till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4:13)
The word "Rapture" is a non-Biblical category used by racial dispensationalists in their doctrinal system which contains various things, select parts of the Bible on certain things included or excluded depending on which non-Biblical authority you consult, and things absolutely NOT in the Bible, but from human tradition. These are all stirred up together in that one category of "The Rapture." If this word was in the Bible you would have long, long ago quoted a Scripture to confirm its use. You only defend your preference for the traditions of men used to make useless the Holy Word of God. The Medieval Latin (700 to 1500 AD) for "rapture" was used to refer to levitating during prayer. (It is useless to defend such experiences to the unbelieving minds of those who pray little or not all and what they do pray is amiss. For those intimate with God no defence is needed.)
There is NO harpageEsometha in the passage your refer to. In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously." Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"
Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)
From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own." The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come back out of. It is not about a geographical relocation but a transformation.
Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it." In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T. They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination. Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.
Several ideas not in the text but inserted by men are "going up" like levitation, instantaneous, and, a specially loathsome deception, the idea of the removal of the racially Gentile Church. These things are just NOT in the Bible.
See if you can focus on just one idea, like "the removal of the Church." This is how to determine for yourself what to believe or not. Locate somewhere in the Bible that such a thing is stated, maybe in other words, like "the Church will disappear," or,"the Church will be taken away," or, something like it. You can't get it out of any concordance, online or hard copy. It is not an idea with Biblical authority for us to believe.
Some try to teach it from Matthew 24 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Mt+24 - broken link) in a passage that begins: "...as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man..." Matt 24:37 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Mt+24%3A37 - broken link) (ASV) And it continues: "...they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left..." Matt 24:39-40 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Mt+24%3A39-40 - broken link) (ASV) Noah knew. As can be demonstrated elsewhere in Scripture, specially about the times of the ends of an age, the wicked did not know. They wouldn't believe what Noah knew. "...none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Dan 12:10 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Da+12%3A10 - broken link) (KJV)
Who was removed in the days of Noah? The wicked were swept away by the flood. Who was left behind to inherit the Earth? The meek who had come under the discipline of the Lord.
You reject the passages that say that the church is raptured because you don't approve of the way it's stated. I Thess. 4:13-17; John 14:1-3. for example. That is your problem. Not the Bibles.
You reject the passages that say that the church is raptured because you don't approve of the way it's stated. I Thess. 4:13-17; John 14:1-3. for example. That is your problem. Not the Bibles.
I guess the Apostle John got "un-raptured" because he is on the earth in Revelation chapter 10.
I guess the Apostle John got "un-raptured" because he is on the earth in Revelation chapter 10.
I'm not sure what it is you think you are saying. But John was not raptured. The rapture refers to the resurrection of the Church. No one other than Christ has thus far been resurrected. The rapture or resurrection is what terminates the Church-age. John had a vision, a revelation, of things that were to come during the Tribulation. That are to come.
Yes it is there. The difference is the underlying text. It is not in the Greek used for the King James. Go to the following link and take a look: 1 Thessalonians 4 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
It doesn't change what I was writing about. My study is in basically the same books you would use. They are mostly old standards.
Let me repeat what I wrote in post #203 on this page: Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 11-09-2009 at 01:08 AM..
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