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2 Thess 2:7 is in reference to the Holy Spirit who is the restraining influence that is preventing the antichrist from making his appearance. His title of Holy Spirit simply isn't used here.
The phrase 'putting the lie to your claim' simply means that the claim is false. Not necessarily that the one making the claim is a liar. One can speak falsely from a state of ignorance. Therefore, a person may not be a liar, he may simply be ignorant. No apology is necessary.
There is no contrivence. This is a Biblical truth. You have simply chosen to disregard the truth and have been deceived. But no one is trying to convince you of your error. What I have presented is for those who are interested in the truth of the matter.
There is much material available for anyone who is interested in researching it. You need only do so.
And the video that Ilene posted is for those who may see it after the rapture so that they may come to know Christ.
That is what I thought you would say - just a bunch of hand waiving.
First of all you attributed a false claim to me, here is what you said - '...your claim that the Bible doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit indwelling the church.'
Hence, your shotgun bible blast of Scriptures.
Second, you then proceeded to attribute that claim as being a lie not ignorance.
'Those verses about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit were to put the lie to your claim that the Bible doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit indwelling the church.'
Hence, I made a claim that was a lie.
So how can 'my' claim be either a lie or ignorance when I never made such a claim. I then corrected you that it was in reference to II Thes.2. And now you can not even admit your false claim that you attributed to me. Nor admit that I was right when I said that II Thess.2 does not mention the Holy Spirit or the Church or being removedfrom the earthprior to the Tribulation.
And now your are just giving us your pre-trib inference as to what you want II Thess.2 to say in order to give proof of YOUR CONTRIVED PRE-TRIB THEOLOGY. And I am the one who is blind and ignorant who is ignoring the truth. What I am ignoring the NON MENTION of those things you want to see in II Thess.2. LOL.
When people tell lies - that make them a liar whether in ignorance or not. According to you I am still spreading lies since you have not retracted your fals claim. You are not acting as a man of God let alone a man period until you step-up and swollow your pride and admit you were wrong in your assumption and false accusations about what I said or did not say. You just ignore that fact and proceed to try and proof your pre-trib position without a mention of you errors.
Come on put into practice what that Book you've been throwing all over these threads says by doing what it would expect you to do in this situation. I would hate see how you would handle something serious, my goodness you cannnot even admit something so small. Interesting for a Christian.
Regardless of the naysayers, this is my thread and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. It will be mysterioius, it will be explained away and I started this thread because it will be happening soon. I'm providing links to a great site and also a link to their discussion board. It will be very informative and helpful to anyone with questions about prophecy and the Rapture.
Right.. so you aren't really sure, you just interpret the bible that way.
Well I hate to break it to you but the bible is a recording of things way back then to people way back then who had no idea our generation would be here... I believe you are missing the educational value in the bible and instead using it as some sort of Nostradamus type book that was written to be fulfilled later.
But that is just my opinion.. keep looking up and keep waiting.
Right.. so you aren't really sure, you just interpret the bible that way.
I said nothing of the kind....I'm VERY sure that you are wrong.
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Well I hate to break it to you but the bible is a recording of things way back then to people way back then who had no idea our generation would be here... I believe you are missing the educational value in the bible and instead using it as some sort of Nostradamus type book that was written to be fulfilled later.
The Bible is ALIVE and very much for today. I'm so sorry that you have been so deeply deceived. I'll pray for you.
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But that is just my opinion.. keep looking up and keep waiting.
Yes, it's all your opinion. I will keep waiting even if I die doing it.
I said nothing of the kind....I'm VERY sure that you are wrong.
Just as sure as you are of this secret rapture? even though there really is no basis for it in scripture?
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The Bible is ALIVE and very much for today. I'm so sorry that you have been so deeply deceived. I'll pray for you.
Educationally it is like a math book.. you learn from it but you don't take it to the grocery store with you to figure out how much you will pay... How do you figure that you are a part of the new covenant yet you still wait for the new covenant to be established by Christ's return... you do realize that means that you don't have salvation but merely hope for it as the disciples hoped for it?
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Yes, it's all your opinion. I will keep waiting even if I die doing it.
Yet if you die and he doesn't come what do you care? You just wasted your whole life preaching that he would come instead of preaching the good news and loving others....
The pre-trib school of thought promotes segregation, and is contrary to the word of God. It professes that there are good guys (raptured) and bad guys (not raptured)... how is that at all biblical?
I showed you in Rev 20 why you are incorrect but you ignore it without even a debate or reason you think otherwise..
I suppose this is all falling on deaf ears but... it was worth a shot.
That is what I thought you would say - just a bunch of hand waiving.
First of all you attributed a false claim to me, here is what you said - '...your claim that the Bible doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit indwelling the church.'
Hence, your shotgun bible blast of Scriptures.
Second, you then proceeded to attribute that claim as being a lie not ignorance.
'Those verses about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit were to put the lie to your claim that the Bible doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit indwelling the church.'
Hence, I made a claim that was a lie.
So how can 'my' claim be either a lie or ignorance when I never made such a claim. I then corrected you that it was in reference to II Thes.2. And now you can not even admit your false claim that you attributed to me. Nor admit that I was right when I said that II Thess.2 does not mention the Holy Spirit or the Church or being removedfrom the earthprior to the Tribulation.
And now your are just giving us your pre-trib inference as to what you want II Thess.2 to say in order to give proof of YOUR CONTRIVED PRE-TRIB THEOLOGY. And I am the one who is blind and ignorant who is ignoring the truth. What I am ignoring the NON MENTION of those things you want to see in II Thess.2. LOL.
When people tell lies - that make them a liar whether in ignorance or not. According to you I am still spreading lies since you have not retracted your fals claim. You are not acting as a man of God let alone a man period until you step-up and swollow your pride and admit you were wrong in your assumption and false accusations about what I said or did not say. You just ignore that fact and proceed to try and proof your pre-trib position without a mention of you errors.
Come on put into practice what that Book you've been throwing all over these threads says by doing what it would expect you to do in this situation. I would hate see how you would handle something serious, my goodness you cannnot even admit something so small. Interesting for a Christian.
If you don't like my explanation, then you don't like it. You are however, stuck with it. And again, it is the Holy Spirit is who is being referred to in 2 Thess. Now stop whining about it.
If you don't like my explanation, then you don't like it. You are however, stuck with it. And again, it is the Holy Spirit is who is being referred to in 2 Thess. Now stop whining about it.
Paul does not state the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit being removed from the earth does not even have firm ground to stand on. The Holy Spirit is involved in everyone recognizing the need for Jesus and there would be NO ONE SAVED during the great tribulation if the Holy Spirit was removed from the earth.
John saw a number greater than he could count that was wearing white robes and was saved during the tribulation.
The Holy Spirit explanation does not hold water.
Paul does not state the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit being removed from the earth does not even have firm ground to stand on. The Holy Spirit is involved in everyone recognizing the need for Jesus and there would be NO ONE SAVED during the great tribulation if the Holy Spirit was removed from the earth.
John saw a number greater than he could count that was wearing white robes and was saved during the tribulation.
The Holy Spirit explanation does not hold water.
No. One of The Holy Spirit's functions or ministries during the Church age is to act as a restraining influence on evil. When the church age is terminated, so is His restraining influence on evil. Now obviously the Holy Spirit is still present, as He is omniscient. He is everywhere. But His restraining ministry is terminated. I should not have said that the Holy Spirit Himself will be removed. Only that His restraining ministry will be removed or terminated. That was careless and incorrect, and I'm surprised that I didn't even catch what I was saying. But what is correct is that when the Church is taken up into Heaven, the Holy Spirit will no longer hold back the evil that is to come into the world.
To help to understand the concept, It might help to remember that though the Holy Spirit is always present, He has not always indwelt the body of the believer. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is unique to the church-age. In no other dispensation of human history, did the Holy Spirit indwell anyone. In the age of Israel, the Holy Spirit had a ministry of Enduement, in which He enpowered certain people for the purpose of accomplishing some specific task or function. Enduement could be lost because of disobedience. For instance, in the case of Samson. There were a few individuals who were endued, but no one was ever permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit in any dispensation other than the church age. But in the church age, every believer is permanently indwelted by God the Holy Spirit. And one of the functions of the indwelling Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the world. He also restrained evil in previous dispensations, He just didn't do it from the standpoint of indwelling the body of the believer. When the church is taken up into Heaven, the Holy Spirit will cease His restraining influence all together so that the antichrist may make his appearance.
I'm glad you brought up the point, so that I could make the correction in what I said.
Just as sure as you are of this secret rapture? even though there really is no basis for it in scripture?
Educationally it is like a math book.. you learn from it but you don't take it to the grocery store with you to figure out how much you will pay... How do you figure that you are a part of the new covenant yet you still wait for the new covenant to be established by Christ's return... you do realize that means that you don't have salvation but merely hope for it as the disciples hoped for it?
Yet if you die and he doesn't come what do you care? You just wasted your whole life preaching that he would come instead of preaching the good news and loving others....
The pre-trib school of thought promotes segregation, and is contrary to the word of God. It professes that there are good guys (raptured) and bad guys (not raptured)... how is that at all biblical?
I showed you in Rev 20 why you are incorrect but you ignore it without even a debate or reason you think otherwise..
I suppose this is all falling on deaf ears but... it was worth a shot.
You did not show anything from Revelation 20. And here is why. The first resurrection is the resurrection of believers as opposed to the second resurrection which is for unbelievers.
The first resurrection takes place in stages. The last two of those stages is shown in Revelation 20:4, and Revelation 20:5.
In Rev 20:4 it says ''And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded...and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.'' Now understand what this is saying. It is saying, that at the end of the tribulation, this group of believers has been resurrected and is going to reign with Christ during the Millennium. But notice this now. A thousand years passes before Rev.20:5 takes place.
Rev 20:5 ''The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.'' This group of believers have been resurrected at the end of the Millennium. A thousand years after the previous group of believers that were mentioned in verse 4. The group of believers that had been resurrected in verse 4 were the Tribulational martyrs and Old Testament saints. The group of believers mentioned in verse 5 are the Millennial believers who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium.
It is only after the Millennial believers are resurrected, that the first resurrection is said to be complete. The last part of verse 5 reads ''This is the first resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power,...
Rev 20:4 is stage three of the first resurrection, and Rev 20:5 is stage four of the first resurrection.
Now working backwards in time, stage two of the first resurrection is the rapture of the church which terminates the church age, so that the Tribulation may begin.
And stage one of course, was the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is the firstfruits. He had to be resurrected first, so that all believers in their proper order and at the proper time could be resurrected. After Christ was resurrected, the next in line to be resurrected is the body of Christ-the bride of Christ. The church. When the body of Christ is determined by God to be complete, then the church age is brought to a close with the rapture or resurrection of the church. The church goes up into Heaven, and the Tribulation is allowed to begin on the earth.
This is all very simple stuff. There should be no confusion over any of this.
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