U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-22-2009, 05:09 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 41,785,987 times
Reputation: 11862

Advertisements

How do you reconcile salvation purely by faith and this passage?

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

HOW much must we help the poor etc in order to enter heaven? It seems Jesus is saying we should help them (or else!), but not how much. But then, isn't this salvation by works? Is it more to do with the attitude of the heart? Like if you earnestly try to be good to others and not turn your back on them, but perhaps not make a big impact, that's what matters most?

This passage used to disturb me. I mean, what if I simply did not give enough of my time/money to the poor? What if merely donating a bit here and there isn't up to Christ's standards?

Some say if you are saved this will be manifest as the 'fruits' of the spirit...but yes, but what of those, through circumstances (say those who are incapacitated to do so), who simply cannot fulfil all of these requirements? (in this modern day not everyone is actually involved in helping the poor). It would be a terrible onus if someone (like some Catholics and others who believe in salvation through works) believed they had to work their way into heaven and to avoid hell.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-22-2009, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 5,026,060 times
Reputation: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
How do you reconcile salvation purely by faith and this passage?

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

HOW much must we help the poor etc in order to enter heaven? It seems Jesus is saying we should help them (or else!), but not how much. But then, isn't this salvation by works? Is it more to do with the attitude of the heart? Like if you earnestly try to be good to others and not turn your back on them, but perhaps not make a big impact, that's what matters most?

This passage used to disturb me. I mean, what if I simply did not give enough of my time/money to the poor? What if merely donating a bit here and there isn't up to Christ's standards?

Some say if you are saved this will be manifest as the 'fruits' of the spirit...but yes, but what of those, through circumstances (say those who are incapacitated to do so), who simply cannot fulfil all of these requirements? (in this modern day not everyone is actually involved in helping the poor). It would be a terrible onus if someone (like some Catholics and others who believe in salvation through works) believed they had to work their way into heaven and to avoid hell.
Every bit of this can be summed into this...LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF...if you are doing that, you will have fulfilled the above. It isn't about how much money you give or how much you do for someone...it is about what is in your HEART...that is what God looks at.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 05:48 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,526 posts, read 11,339,345 times
Reputation: 4429
The simplicity of His life in you doing the works (as the Father did through Jesus) is all that the gospel is pointing to. We get in bondage over works, the Law, thinking and feeling the right things - when the answer is right before us...Jesus.

His life in us works in us the fruits of righteousness, as we lay down our right to express the old man's displays, He begins to express Himself through us. It's Christ in you - the hope of glory.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 08:47 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 7,899,297 times
Reputation: 17781
Quote:
This passage used to disturb me. I mean, what if I simply did not give enough of my time/money to the poor? What if merely donating a bit here and there isn't up to Christ's standards?
I see it as not living up to a certain standard....but being available when or what God calls us to do to help another soul.
Like it is mention... it is the intent of the heart that is giving, not how much one gives....that our Lord sees!!
God will always bring those of need to one who has the abilities or supplies for that need. Whether it is food, water, a bed to sleep, emotional, physical, and spiritual support or even just a simple smile or hug in that day to someone, can be a big blessing to one who is lonely.....if one has done it in a pure heart to the least of our brethren, neighbor, has done it unto the Lord!
It is His life in us....that produces the fruit of giving, loving, caring, supporting, to meet and understanding that need....being His arms, legs, mouth, wisdom, prayer, whatever God would have us to use of ourselves for helping those He has brought in the path of our lives.... !!

Blessings....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,056,014 times
Reputation: 167
When we have a true relationship with God and we seek regularly his love, I think that giving wether it be monetary or giving by way of your time - this often is because you want to and not because you think you might need to.

I have an Aunt that is mentally quite disabled. I take the time to visit her and care for her and often I don't feel like taking the time as my life can get quite busy with my 4 children and a business, but when I am with her and I play a game of cards with her and see her laugh or smile, or when I am there to hug her when she cries......its those moments that I am glad that I took the time. I make a difference in her quality of life.

Her very own sister frequents the Catholic Church every single day .....and never takes the time for her sister (my disabled Aunt).......NEVER. I truly do not understand this.

So yes, I believe when we have Christ / God's Love in us / good deeds are something that become a part of how we live our lives - not because we feel we need to do them its because we want to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,501,340 times
Reputation: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
How do you reconcile salvation purely by faith and this passage?

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


A brother in Christ has led me to believe that this standard of judgment are on those from after the milleniel reign of Christ when Satan is once more set loose from the pit to cause many to go astray. The problem here is that one can assume that it would be immediate, but it may take the devil some time to gather up his army and in the process, cause crime and sickness and other things to come after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Blessed are they that have not seen Him, and yet believe for without faith it is impossible to please God.

So during the reign of Christ, everybody can see Him: so how can the standard of faith apply towards them? It does not.

So another standard is necessary, especially when He finally sits on that throne to judge....by whom had shown love for one another & whom did not during this last rebellion by Satan on the earth.

So it is a matter of asking the Lord how this standard of judgment can be unless the standard of faith is no longer applicable for these people can see Him. Therefore righteousness has to come by another way to be seen and that is how they loved one another since it will be obvious then that Jesus is God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2010, 07:07 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,125 times
Reputation: 10
Hi, an atheist here, but Matthew 25 does explain it all. Ones faith leads to good works,or good works to faith, the two are inseparable. One of the things that turns us off to "Christians" is the refusal to understand the gospels.
Bill
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2010, 07:19 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,314,000 times
Reputation: 5141
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsr3 View Post
Hi, an atheist here, but Matthew 25 does explain it all. Ones faith leads to good works,or good works to faith, the two are inseparable. One of the things that turns us off to "Christians" is the refusal to understand the gospels.
Bill
Welcome to the forum wsr3...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2010, 09:21 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,075,841 times
Reputation: 630
:QUOTE=little elmer;12127950]The simplicity of His life in you doing the works (as the Father did through Jesus) is all that the gospel is pointing to. We get in bondage over works, the Law, thinking and feeling the right things - when the answer is right before us...Jesus.

His life in us works in us the fruits of righteousness, as we lay down our right to express the old man's displays, He begins to express Himself through us. It's Christ in you - the hope of glory.[/quote]

Amen to this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2010, 09:22 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,075,841 times
Reputation: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
I see it as not living up to a certain standard....but being available when or what God calls us to do to help another soul.
Like it is mention... it is the intent of the heart that is giving, not how much one gives....that our Lord sees!!
God will always bring those of need to one who has the abilities or supplies for that need. Whether it is food, water, a bed to sleep, emotional, physical, and spiritual support or even just a simple smile or hug in that day to someone, can be a big blessing to one who is lonely.....if one has done it in a pure heart to the least of our brethren, neighbor, has done it unto the Lord!
It is His life in us....that produces the fruit of giving, loving, caring, supporting, to meet and understanding that need....being His arms, legs, mouth, wisdom, prayer, whatever God would have us to use of ourselves for helping those He has brought in the path of our lives.... !!

Blessings....
Agreed Sister!!!! Well put . .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top