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I'm curious then, what do you make of Rev. 20:12-13; 22:12? Not arguing, I'm truly interested.
I didn't see a response to this question so I will post one:
Rev. 20:12-13 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
22:12 - "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
Jeremiah 17:10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.
There are several OT passages that have similar language to the verses you are asking about in Rev. but I chose this one from Jeremiah because it shows that the punishment (and rewards) are according to the results of his deeds. I don't think there is a mass judgment but that we reap what we sow here and now in this life as a result of our actions.
Since God is not bound by time it can be that all these things in Revelation happen simultaneously or not.. I don't know, but my own study has shown that it is not how we think it is.
Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
I believe that all people are under the authority of God whether they realize it or not. This means that all peoples are affected by his kingdom and as such, universal salvation makes the most sense given the rest of the scripture... IMO.
I specifically said he is kind, and He will give people every opportunity to accept him as their saviour. However, if they subbornly reject him, they will pay the price and perish. Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him?
God forgave them just like he always has.... Israel was spoiled according to your line of thought because even after they went to false gods and inanimate objects rather than their own God.... he sent his own Son to show them the way and bring forgiveness to them when they wouldn't seek him anymore... IMO
Quote:
No one deserves it, but it will be granted if you accept Christ, be it on you deathbed, or at your 20th birthday party.
So you admit that no one deserves it (NO Justice in it) yet God will perpetually punish many who don't deserve it? (No one/many are the same amount, just like ALL/MANY are the same amount) How is God just by doing something you admit has no justice in it?
Quote:
Many people think they are saved because they prayed a prayer back in the day, but if you realize that you live in habitual and willful sin, then it is always a good idea to do as the Bible says and examine your faith, and make sure you are saved.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5-6).
So what does it take to be saved? First you were saying one needed to believe in order to be saved... now you say that belief is not enough but that you must obey the laws as well.... Do you have to accomplish righteousness or just strive for it?
The only solution to this is what Jesus taught... the only way to escape the habit of sinning is to fight your flesh and love God, AND each other... Tell people the good news (you are forgiven for your sin) and they will naturally do what is right from the heart.
I didn't see a response to this question so I will post one:
Rev. 20:12-13 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
22:12 - "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
Jeremiah 17:10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.
There are several OT passages that have similar language to the verses you are asking about in Rev. but I chose this one from Jeremiah because it shows that the punishment (and rewards) are according to the results of his deeds. I don't think there is a mass judgment but that we reap what we sow here and now in this life as a result of our actions.
Since God is not bound by time it can be that all these things in Revelation happen simultaneously or not.. I don't know, but my own study has shown that it is not how we think it is.
Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
I believe that all people are under the authority of God whether they realize it or not. This means that all peoples are affected by his kingdom and as such, universal salvation makes the most sense given the rest of the scripture... IMO.
Why not just read the rest of it while you are at it:
Rev 20:14-15 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I see what you mean about sin, but sometimes people just "backslide" or don't mature in their faith. The part that bothers me about the Baptist church where I'm a member, is that they teach the ABC's of salvation - admit, believe, confess. They also teach once-saved-always-saved. So, if someone admits they are a sinner, believes that Jesus died for their sins and rose again, and they confess their sins, then Jesus is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins, etc., so they are saved and have eternal security. Then, they turn right around and want to know in a couple of years if someone is "really saved." So, if they are not "really saved," then was Jesus not faithful and just to forgive them? Did He say, "No. I won't save you right now. Maybe later." That doesn't make sense.
There's the most precious 16-year-old girl in our church who has CP and is wheelchair-bound. For years I've seen her close her eyes and sometimes lift her hands to the Lord as she worships during the music. She won an award at school for outstanding character. She is an awesome person. She "got saved" a few years ago, and then a couple of weeks ago he got "really saved" because her Sunday School teacher convinced her she didn't really mean it the first time or something. This is nonsense. She has loved and lived for God for years. The SS teacher is making it look like you have to live by a rule book, or have some type of emotion going on all the time, or something. Who knows? Several of our teenagers have gotten "really saved" lately and I think it is damaging to their spiritual growth because it doesn't make sense.
Since God is kind to the unthankful and the evil, as that verse we talked about states, then surely He is kind to the ones who "think" they are saved. In Christianity there are too many "rules" from too many denominations teaching how to be saved. Yes, we need to learn to walk in His ways, love God and our neighbor as ourselves, and live as sinless as possible, but Christ already did the saving. That's why churches can't agree on what it takes to be saved - they don't understand that it's not something we do, but something Christ already did.
I feel sorry for the girl... why lay another burden on her like that. Here you have a growing child (with or without challenges) who everyone agrees has a heart for God. Then after 16 years of being told she is a good person and godly (even with the mistakes made while growing) and yet she was doing it all wrong to begin with because she wasn't "really saved."
Where is the girl to go from there? What she was doing before (learning right from wrong, and trying her best) was apparently not the definition of being "really saved" because her elders told her so and she trusts them.
What now? I experienced this as a child. At five I came to know God and his Christ. At 14, after having made some mistakes, I was told I had not been "really saved" when I was just doing my best while learning right from wrong.. I had to confess all over and be baptized AGAIN in front of the congregation like a "common sinner." I went from uninterested in sin to pregnant at 17 and it didn't stop there. I figured that if I was going to hell when I was a kid and didn't know it then I might as well take advantage of the freedom of going to hell....
What it did was place the burden of guilt back onto my shoulders that they were teaching me was forgiven. At that point my faith in God (who appointed these teachers over me) was non-existent. So I really feel bad for those teenagers... what a fragile time in one's life anyway!
This type of thing is what still turns me away from churches. The psychological damage I had from it was immeasurable but there was one day when, like Ilene, I asked God a question along the lines of "what's the point of living if no matter what I do, there's a chance I may go to hell."
I got the answer when I read that God doesn't fail and his plan was to save all. It was then that I saw those teachers over me in the same pickle I had been in. It was sad. However, telling people everyone goes to heaven is worse in that sort of setting then telling them they are going to hell.
Why not just read the rest of it while you are at it:
Rev 20:14-15 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I will concede that you are right about hell... IF you can show me what information is contained in the book of life.
From the title it seems to be a book of the living, but then whose name would not be in that?
IF you can show me what information is contained in the book of life.
Hold on, I think I stashed the Book Of Live in my briefcase somewhere. Let me look for it. LOL (sigh).....
The Bible says people's names can be blotted out of the book.
Revelations: Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Ps. 69:28: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and not be written with the righteous."
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-22-2010 at 10:31 AM..
Many people think they are saved because they prayed a prayer back in the day, but if you realize that you live in habitual and willful sin, then it is always a good idea to do as the Bible says and examine your faith, and make sure you are saved.
Sin is breaking the law... missing the mark... so I shortened it to laws.
Sin is breaking the law... missing the mark... so I shortened it to laws.
I said the Corinthians says you should examine yourself. But of course there is no point in doing that, since everyone is already good to go. Right? Sigh...
PS It is not cool when you try to twist the meaning of other posters words.
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