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Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Who are His people?
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Yes He is the propitation for the elect as John states, but also for every sin of all time. His sacrfice was universal atonement....but still.....is this atonement automatic without reverence?
Tell me what reason reverence would be required if in fact all sins are accounted for? Isn't it true that it is BECAUSE of the irreverence that God made a way for man to be able to commune with their creator? If the chosen people had been reverent there would have been no need for a savior in the first place.
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Or is it? What say the scriptures.......who are His People?
Romans 10:13;. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come, And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.
The word "whosoever" is used at least 110 times in the New Testament and always with the unrestricted meaning. It takes faith to be saved, to be His people. Once one recognizes the payment received by Christ through the seed of the gospel in them, he is saved.
The scripture supports this, as it always has.
Universal atonement with a increasing elect.
So you think that just because a verse says that those who call on the lord shall be saved, it really means that those who DO NOT call on the name of the lord should NOT be saved? Or is this just a statement of fact.. that God will honor a call to him. Can we assume the opposite is true even though it is not addressed? Perhaps those who don't call the lord will seek out.... You must admit that the verse you provided does not say that those who DON'T call on him will NOT be saved.. your inference there, right?
And regarding the verse in Rev. 22... Whosoever will... so here will means intention and the action of doing what is intended but when God will have all men to be saved it is just wishful thinking on God's part? Yet man gets what they will? I don't get your logic here.
You have not comprehended what has been said on this thread and you cling to somethig you think you can disagree about and use against me. You people keep asking "how can loving God do this and that". Well, our loving God has done many things, and some are mentioned on this very thread, the flood for example, and what has happened to Israel on many occations. And he WILL punish unbelievers.
Yes, it is very tiresome having to explain the same things to you guys over and over. Even now that I have explained it for the hundedth time, someone will ask the same questions again and again.
You are defining the word "bicker", "repetition" and the phrase "beating the dead horse".
Apparently what you said was unclear because I feel the same way.. you seem to want to connect what happened to Israel for their unbelief to what happens to individuals for their unbelief. Unfortunately...
Romans 11:30-31 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
It was Israel's disobedience that caused the mercy from God.. therefore it is a benefit to individuals that Israel was disobedient.
Now if you continue to say we are twisting your words then it is evident that you are backtracking and have closed your mind to the issue altogether. Three people have now understood your statement and yet you say we are misunderstanding it. If this was me, I would apologize and restate my point more clearly... you seem to think it is our fault that you are not being clear.
HINT: Sodom and Gomorrah is a better analogy of what would happen to an unbeliever... See 2 Peter 2.
All will come, each in their own order. Rev 22 is not the end. Sin does not exist forever.
Moderator cut: insult
Let's see wehat the scripture says!
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son............. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The FINAL AGE right there for YOU! NH and E...it ends there and this state continues on FOREVER, FOR AGES AND AGES, ALWAYS.
Moderator cut: insult
Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-23-2010 at 04:16 PM..
Reason: Please do not insult the posters..It is against tos
What is the difference between faith and belief in your mind?
Talk about a conundrum! Belief builds faith!
You believe something, or someone, but you have faith "IN"..the things not seen. When a couple says “I do” at the altar, this is the faith they are publicly expressing in each other, a trust that leads to mutual commitment. Because of this faith, they pledge to be faithful to each other, to be true, to be loyal, to entrust themselves to one another and serve one another for the rest of their days.
This is what Joshua asks of the Israelites. He didn’t ask them if they believed in the existence of the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He asked them who would serve the Lord. And the people responded that yes, they would serve him, based on the faithful way the Lord had provided for them. He had proved to them that He was worthy of their trust by the way he had delivered them from evil and taken care of their every need. THis is what Jesus asks from us. Exactly what Hebrews 1 claims, By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
That is FAITH. A human condition that God gives us through Jesus Christ, the evidence of Him. This is echoed in Ephesians teaching on marriage. Husbands and wives believe in each other enough to commit themselves, to give themselves to each other totally. Part of what we human beings have to give to another is our future. Total commitment therefore has to mean that we give ourselves forever, without reservation.
God showed us Him. We saw Him. We have faith in God.
You believe something, or someone, but you have faith "IN"..the things not seen. When a couple says “I do” at the altar, this is the faith they are publicly expressing in each other, a trust that leads to mutual commitment. Because of this faith, they pledge to be faithful to each other, to be true, to be loyal, to entrust themselves to one another and serve one another for the rest of their days.
This is what Joshua asks of the Israelites. He didn’t ask them if they believed in the existence of the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He asked them who would serve the Lord. And the people responded that yes, they would serve him, based on the faithful way the Lord had provided for them. He had proved to them that He was worthy of their trust by the way he had delivered them from evil and taken care of their every need. THis is what Jesus asks from us. Exactly what Hebrews 1 claims, By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
That is FAITH. A human condition that God gives us through Jesus Christ, the evidence of Him. This is echoed in Ephesians teaching on marriage. Husbands and wives believe in each other enough to commit themselves, to give themselves to each other totally. Part of what we human beings have to give to another is our future. Total commitment therefore has to mean that we give ourselves forever, without reservation.
God showed us Him. We saw Him. We have faith in God.
The way I understand it:
Faith - belief that is not based on proof
Belief - confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof
So it seems that they are very similar, in fact..
I asked because I am wondering how much of each you need to qualify as a believer, in your opinion.
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See 2 Peter 2.
