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Old 04-24-2010, 01:20 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,909,900 times
Reputation: 647

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Oh really...let's see why don't we?
Hmmmmm.......lets' see about this....

Now wait a minute...is it Jesus didn't ONLY destroy the work of the devil for the children of God...BUT...it takes becoming a child of God for the works of the devil to be destroyed in you....?

Legoman...you are contradicting yourself again...why is this so prevalant amongst the UR crowd....?
You are misunderstanding and/or twisting what I said.

We were all children of wrath (Eph 2:3), yet when we are converted we are born again to be children of God.

Quote:
Ok...so they are just children...no titles...hmmm that's not what John says in 1 John 3:
Never said that.

Quote:
Again...you contradicted yourself. There are two fixed groups here, one is reborn, they become a child of God, SEPARATE from NOT BEING REBORN. Fixed groups, two types.
No contradiction, just you misunderstanding. I agree there are two groups, they may even be "fixed" in this life (fixed in the sense that only the elect are converted in this lifetime), but they are not fixed forever.

Its a process. We all start out as children of wrath (or children of the devil) and we are converted to being children of God.

Romans 8:20-21 tells us all creation will be delivered into the glorious freedom and liberty of the children of God.

I know I know, you have a different view on what this "all creation" is. But I don't see it the way you do.

Quote:
On the contrary, my Christ has fulfilled everything. I live in the New Jerusalem. I have eternal life. Your Christ has postponed justification for my sins already...your Christ HAS NOT brought in everlasting righteousness. Lest you forget Legoman, being a New Creation is a present reality right now.
In some ways I agree with you. Christ has fulfilled everything. We are a new creation now, but still in the physical. The old man must die.

We just disagree on what Christ fulfilled. I believe it was salvation for all. You believe it was salvation for all elect, only those who love God.

But perhaps you forget Christ died for us while we were ungodly - He loved us first, not the other way around.

I will try to address more in the next post.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:33 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,909,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (Grace) not of yourselves: [it (Grace) is] the gift of God:
I disagree. "that not of yourselves" is referring to both grace and faith.

Quote:
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

...Grace is the subject that is a gift from God. Faith is the result of this grace that is in mankind, and that FAITH is measured.
Yes faith and grace are linked together. Did you not notice that it says God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith... ?

God deals men their faith! He gives it to them. I don't know why you can't see that.

I didn't understand your point on Phil 1:29.

To be honest, we may as well agree to disagree at this point. As to me it is obvious, to you it is not. Only God can open eyes. Either mine or yours I guess.


All I ask is that you consider that UR is a possibility... doesn't it seem a slightly better plan than God purposely creating most people knowing and intending them to be tormented forever? Do you prefer the ET view? It seems like you prefer that Jesus death was only for a few people, and you go through great pains to show that Jesus didn't take the sin of the world (IMHO both of these views being contrary to plain scripture). Your view confuses me. I can only assume you are deceived. Of course you will say the same to me. Be well..
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,277,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes death means no life... and death is forever. Yet realistically you say that there IS life after death so then death is not forever and death doesn't mean no life....
There is life for those who have professed their faith in Chritst. The scripture teaches this....do you deny this?

Quote:
If life continues after death (even just for some to burn forever) then there is life after death, even if you are consciously tormented forever it is still living in torment.

So for you to say that unbelievers will not see life and will suffer death... you are really saying that the first death is physical and so is the second...right? or are you saying the first death is spiritual and the second is physical?
I will group these two thoughts together. Kat, you confuse yourself.
First death - Adam - Spiritual separation for God
Second Death - Without Christ - Spiritual separation from God

There is no third death.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:38 PM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,581 posts, read 5,253,323 times
Reputation: 17614
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Wow that was a nice post latte'chic! Blessings to you - I do forgive you and I hope you forgive me too when I get a little short with people.

These arguments we have do weigh on us, its much nicer just to explain a view without an expectation of trying to convert a person to that same view, or to somehow prove you are "right". You are right arguing or "debating" in a certain manner does not produce fruit, and can lead to hurtful and prideful feelings. It is also an exercise in frustration. Personally I think God lets us do this so we will all learn patience and forgiveness!

Its OK if we agree to disagree. I will pray for you and perhaps you will pray for me too! Because at least we do agree that God is great and merciful for what He has done for us.

Be well and be still in the Lord, Latte...


Oh, legoman, I forgave you long time ago !!
Yes, I will always pray for you, because God loves you and so do I. And that is the most important to me, praying for all those He has brought into this world!!
Yes, I agree with you...... "Personally I think God lets us do this so we will all learn patience and forgiveness!"

And also for me, I'm sure getting tired of going to that darn wood shed being chastised about not showing and being more loving as He has loved me !!!

"at least we do agree that God is great and merciful for what He has done for us." Amen, amen, and did I say..... AMEN !!!

Blessings
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,277,551 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I disagree. "that not of yourselves" is referring to both grace and faith.

Yes faith and grace are linked together. Did you not notice that it says God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith... ?

God deals men their faith! He gives it to them. I don't know why you can't see that.

I didn't understand your point on Phil 1:29.

To be honest, we may as well agree to disagree at this point. As to me it is obvious, to you it is not. Only God can open eyes. Either mine or yours I guess.


All I ask is that you consider that UR is a possibility... doesn't it seem a slightly better plan than God purposely creating most people knowing and intending them to be tormented forever? Do you prefer the ET view? It seems like you prefer that Jesus death was only for a few people, and you go through great pains to show that Jesus didn't take the sin of the world (IMHO both of these views being contrary to plain scripture). Your view confuses me. I can only assume you are deceived. Of course you will say the same to me. Be well..
Legoman,

I don't "prefer" any view. I believe what I have read, and ET exists in the New Heavens and Earth, the unending age, for those who are outside of Christ. It's ok, we can disagree, but I really need an exegesis for this view you and others present, because I have been all over the net and read the various arguements, and IMO, the scripture does not support UR in any way shape or form.

There are two set of people in scripture.

Righteous and Wicked. They both have their destination points.
One is eternal life with God. The other, is not.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,277,551 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You are misunderstanding and/or twisting what I said.

We were all children of wrath (Eph 2:3), yet when we are converted we are born again to be children of God.

Never said that.

No contradiction, just you misunderstanding. I agree there are two groups, they may even be "fixed" in this life (fixed in the sense that only the elect are converted in this lifetime), but they are not fixed forever.

Its a process. We all start out as children of wrath (or children of the devil) and we are converted to being children of God.

Romans 8:20-21 tells us all creation will be delivered into the glorious freedom and liberty of the children of God.

I know I know, you have a different view on what this "all creation" is. But I don't see it the way you do.

In some ways I agree with you. Christ has fulfilled everything. We are a new creation now, but still in the physical. The old man must die.

We just disagree on what Christ fulfilled. I believe it was salvation for all. You believe it was salvation for all elect, only those who love God.

But perhaps you forget Christ died for us while we were ungodly - He loved us first, not the other way around.

I will try to address more in the next post.
I suggest you read your post again.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,277,551 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Do you believe a baby sheep will reign forever, too? If you take the Lake of Fire literally, you should take the Lamb literally.
LOL....Kingdom Literal is how I take it. That is of the spirit.
Typical response.....nice try.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:43 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,909,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The New Heavens and Earth, all throughout scripture, is the FINAL AND UNENDING AGE. You say it isn't, and you are WRONG. The Bible disagrees with you in many, many places.
The bible disagrees with me in many, many places? Where?

To be honest I don't know everything (or even much) about how all the ages will unfold, especially in Revelations. There could be multiple ages or one age - who knows exactly. I don't see where it says there is an UNENDING AGE. There is one scripture (1 Cor 10:11) that speaks of the END OF THE AGES, that would seem to contradict your idea of a final unending age.

What I do know is that the gospel is simple: God will reconcile all, God will restore all, God will be all in all.

Not "all in some", as you have suggested more than once.

Have at it.


Quote:
It isn't about God allowing, it is about God's rules and His inability to break them, because He never goes back on His word. You impose your own carnal, emotional and philosophical thoughts onto His charcter when His character NEVER changes....EVER. He is Just and loves those who love Him.

Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children

You must love Him, for Him to HAVE MERCY on YOU.
It is you who are imposing your own thoughts onto God's character.

If you didn't know: God loved us first, while we were sinners. We would never love God if He didn't work in our lives first. God delights in giving mercy to people. God binds all to disobedience so He can have mercy on all. God can achieve what He desires - and He desires to save all people. God declares that all will bow in reverence and worship Him and confess to Him and even swear allegiance to Him - so in the end all will love Him.

Its so simple. I'm sad that you don't see it; you fight tooth and nail to advance the idea that sin and suffering will perpetuate forever. What a backwards gospel you have. You will see it one day.

Peace out sciotamicks.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,748,570 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
There is life for those who have professed their faith in Chritst. The scripture teaches this....do you deny this?
Nope I don't deny that. Do you deny that in order to be consciously punished there must be a life? So what is the difference between the after life of the believer and the after life of the unbeliever regarding the fact they both live after death?

Quote:
I will group these two thoughts together. Kat, you confuse yourself.
First death - Adam - Spiritual separation for God
Second Death - Without Christ - Spiritual separation from God

There is no third death.
Huh?

Did you mean spiritual separation for God or from God or both?

So both deaths are spiritual?

So where does the physical death come in...?

and didn't Christ conquer death? or just death for believers?
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,277,551 times
Reputation: 401
Legoman, the resotoration and reconciliation that everyone speaks about, Dispensationalist, to Universalists, to everyone else is the NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH.

In order to decide what is the nature of this resoration, one needs to study this unending age.
I have. UR is in serious error IMO. It fails to understand the recipient of the blessings.
It only goes out to those who have........FAITH.
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