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[quote=stevek64;40430562]But allowing people to come into our country who are unvaccinated will indeed impact some of the kids/adults who are vaccinated. I got "yelled" at on this point many times on this thread. And here's the logic that is used by some on this thread....given the measles vaccine is 97% effective(CDC stats), there are many people still vulnerable even though they have been vaccinated. [quote]
There will always be vulnerable people, you will never get a 100% solution but by applying the KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) principle, you vaccinate as many healthy people as you can and get the maximum bang for your buck, the best ROI possible. With that done, any transmission of measles or other vaccines preventable diseases would be minimal at best. As we saw in the late 90's and early 00's when measles cases numbered less than 100 cases a year, without banning anything or anyone. Now as vaccination here in the U.S. has been going down, measles cases, whooping cough and other diseases have been going up significantly.
Worrying about a small percentage for whom vaccines may not be effective when you have communities with worse vaccination rates than in Sub Saharan Africa is like complaining about a hangnail when you have a gushing head wound.
When we have communities where less than 50% of the kids are being vaccinated, that should be the focus, not the off-chance that some foreigner transports a disease here when the vast majority of measles outbreaks have started by unvaccinated Americans bringing the disease back with them overseas. Even if someone does bring the disease back, unless there's a sufficient number of unvaccinated to act as reservoir, transmission will be rapidly cut off.
Makes sense if you're going to get kids vaccinated, make sure that the adults who work most closely with them are vaccinated as well. This is hardly a novel idea, many professions require vaccinations as a part of the job. One poster in this thread was complaining about this in particular, saying that only getting the kids vaccinated would be pointless because child care workers had no such requirement....well....voila.
It is pointless, both are pointless to me but if you are going to do one then you should do the other. I agree. Doesn't make sense otherwise. Foreigners should also be required, and let's just throw everyone alive in there for good measure, I'm sure it will get there.
THOSE EVIL BASTARDS!!!
Is that suppose to be evil, sarcastic or juvenile? It's interesting talking with you, that's for sure.
So Julie who is 16 is going to approach her boyfriend Joe, also 16 and ask him to get presceened for HPV before they have sex?
Because that sound exactly like the sort of thing two hormone-overloaded teenagers will do in the heat of the moment.
I'm gathering you don't give people much credit. I have two girls who are in college and have yet to be sexually active. They are adults now and can chose to have the vaccine when they are ready to engage. I try not to make a habit of lumping groups of people into neat little categories. Again, we have a different opinion.
Why don't we just make California a police state? I think you should stop worrying that everyone will run wild and cause massive disease. I tend to give people a bit more credit.
Last edited by PoppySead; 07-15-2015 at 11:45 PM..
There will always be vulnerable people, you will never get a 100% solution but by applying the KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) principle, you vaccinate as many healthy people as you can and get the maximum bang for your buck, the best ROI possible. With that done, any transmission of measles or other vaccines preventable diseases would be minimal at best. As we saw in the late 90's and early 00's when measles cases numbered less than 100 cases a year, without banning anything or anyone. Now as vaccination here in the U.S. has been going down, measles cases, whooping cough and other diseases have been going up significantly.
Worrying about a small percentage for whom vaccines may not be effective when you have communities with worse vaccination rates than in Sub Saharan Africa is like complaining about a hangnail when you have a gushing head wound.
When we have communities where less than 50% of the kids are being vaccinated, that should be the focus, not the off-chance that some foreigner transports a disease here when the vast majority of measles outbreaks have started by unvaccinated Americans bringing the disease back with them overseas. Even if someone does bring the disease back, unless there's a sufficient number of unvaccinated to act as reservoir, transmission will be rapidly cut off.
I agree with your general point and that's the logic I've always sided with. The only place we part is I think gov should butt out, don't have such laws as CA's. If the gov wants to "educate" the populace on the importance of vaccines, via websites, mailings, have a talking cartoon in the face of a smiley shot, fantastic. Knock yourself out. But end it there. The rest is up to the people to decide. Especially given CA already has a large participation rate in vaccinations anyways, I think this law is silly/overreaching. Let people decide and if people don't want to vaccinate, they know the risk they are taking and the benefits they may feel work for them in their particular situation. The vast majority of people who vaccinated will be protected. Free choice. We can't save people from themselves if they get something. And as you say, there will always be vulnerable people. That's life. Done.
It will be negative either way for me. If they oppose adult mandates that's telling me the adults voting sb277 in can't put their money where their mouths are. If it passes, the state will continue to add more and I can't see that turning out well when or if people are criminally charged or fired.
I know several here also... they are willing to retire if it comes to it... and many, I'm sure, will say good.
It's not that they have never had the vaccine... it's that they had bad reactions and just reading the label gives possible adverse effects.
Several of our nurses 3 years ago rolled up their sleeves like everyone else... the next day they all had arms that were red and swollen... we were told NOT to use anymore vaccine from that lot and later learned there was a problem with that lot...
So much for blind faith.
Since... two have refused the flu vaccine and they wear masks the entire flue seasons which frightens some patients into thinking the nurses are ill.
I'm gathering you don't give people much credit. I have two girls who are in college and have yet to be sexually active. They are adults now and can chose to have the vaccine when they are ready to engage. I try to make a habit of lumping groups of people into neat little categories. Again, we have a different opinion.
Why don't we just make California a police state? I think you should stop worrying that everyone will run wild and cause massive disease. I tend to give people a bit more credit.
Because parents always know when their kids are sexually active. Right
Stop! Just a minute. Just going to run and get a vaccine!
I agree with your general point and that's the logic I've always sided with. The only place we part is I think gov should butt out, don't have such laws as CA's.
Yet the Courts don't agree with your sentiment. Unless you're arguing for a system of complete anarchy, when it comes to public health, as the Courts have repeatedly found, we are all required to participate.
All this law is doing is returning California to what was the norm at the time before the ill-fated "personal exemptions" were enacted, nor should they ever have existed. Don't want to vaccinate your kid, home-school them. Don't want to home-school them, get them vaccinated. People have choices, they just need to put on their big boy and big girl pants and make an adult decision on which way is the best for their family, inaction or simply "hiding in the herd" as advocated by Bob Sears is no longer an option.
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Let people decide and if people don't want to vaccinate, they know the risk they are taking
I'd agree with you if the risk was THEIRS and THEIRS alone, but unfortunately when someone chooses not to vaccinate their child and their child comes down with a disease that spreads to infants and others who cannot be vaccinated for one reason or another, it is no longer THEIR risk to bear, they've now spread the risk to people who never signed up for it.
Of all the diseases that are brought up when it comes to vaccination, tetanus is one of the least mentioned, that is on you. You certainly aren't going to infect anyone else so if you skip out on it, the consequences are yours and yours alone, it'd be stupid to pass up considering the possible consequences, but you aren't affecting others by forgoing it, not true for measles, whooping cough and other highly communicable, vaccine preventable diseases.
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especially given CA already has a large participation rate in vaccinations anyways,
Except it doesn't, in some areas the vaccination rate is equivalent to that of third world countries, or worse. You can't have a 95% vaccination rate in one area and a 50% vaccination rate in another area and hope to maintain any sort of effective herd immunity for the most vulnerable among our population. All you are doing is creating disease reservoirs which will result in future outbreaks.
Point taken, and that's good! But how many vaccines does an anesthesiologist give in a day, a week, a year? I'd guess near zero. And that's who, in the example, is "spreading out" his kids' vaccines. My point was that the doctors who give all the vaccines to babies, the peds and family practitioners, do not as a rule oppose immunizations or believe in spreading them out. I did not mean to imply that docs in other areas don't support vaccines or give some vaccines themselves. I recall my mom's oncologist asking her if she wanted the pneumovax. She said "no"; I said "yes, she does". (She really was not of sound mind at the time!)
I know. I was just pulling your leg a bit. I found it interesting how many specialties do have an interest in vaccines, though. I just looked up the ones in the list in the post here. Of course, the oncologists must have pretty thorough vaccine knowledge base.
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Originally Posted by stevek64
Well, yes, nothing is 100% safe and effective, agreed.
Case and point. The CDC said the measles outbreak at Disneyland was from an overseas source:
And no one died from the outbreak. And those who caught it, most of them were probably unvaccinated I would guess.
Using your idea of "requires all people to work together" which is the "essence of public health" and feel the CA law is a good idea, I'm guessing you are for banning people from countries from using some/all of our public spaces that don't vaccinate, just like the CA law bans kids in CA from attending public schools? Banning people from certain public spaces seems valid using that same logic. After all, according to the CDC, the source of the measles outbreak was someone from overseas. As I'm told even those that vaccinate, can't vaccinate, have compromised immune systems should be protected in our society so this would seem like a valid law that should be passed, right? How far should we take this is the bigger question, all in the name of making the "system" work when "everyone buys in"?
I have already stated I am in favor of requiring proof of immunity to measles for anyone entering the US. That includes returning citizens.
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Originally Posted by stevek64
False. Lots of outbreaks overseas in the neighborhood of 20 million cases a year, and that's just for measles. And measles can come into our country easily through people visiting/leaving our country and bringing it back:
""Measles can come into our country easily through visitors or when Americans travel abroad and bring it back," Schuchat said. "
"Measles is still common around the world and we estimate there are around 20 million cases a year," Schuchat added."
Given the pro stance by many on this CA law, it should be a slam dunk to do what's right for the public good and we need to get serious about this. Are you all for starting to ban people going out and going in to our country/certain countries? How far should we go with this given many feel CA law is such a good thing? Seems given the number of cases overseas and how easy it is to bring back/forth, an overseas travel ban/limiting should be far above the priority of just what the CA law covers as it would do much more good just by looking at the numbers in preventing things like measles, protecting public health which is the prime goal. Let's get real about public health. Science. Facts.
No travel "ban" is necessary. Just be sure you are immune to measles before you travel here.
About half of the 2015 cases were under age 20, and most were unvaccinated or of unknown vaccine status.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
The influx of 70,000 unaccompanied minors coming into the US in 2014 was the subject of several lengthy discussions regarding the Hospital's infectious disease protocols...
The "unaccompanied minors" were mostly already vaccinated. Many even brought their shot records with them.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
I'm actually upset that I cannot come in contact with these childhood diseases. I need the booster. If I can't, as a person who experienced chicken pox, come in contact with a child with chicken pox then I am more likely to have shingles.
The chicken pox vaccine is not the cause of the increase in shingles cases. That increase started before the vaccine was available and the rate was the same in communities which were using the vaccine and those who were not.
"They found that annual rates of shingles increased 39 percent over the 18-year study period. However, they didn't find a statistically significant change in the rate after the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine. They also found that the rate of shingles didn't vary from state to state where there were different rates of chickenpox vaccine coverage."
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I've been exposed to all of these diseases yet have I been symptomatic... NO. Why? They are so contagious yet I have not been infected. Is it the red wine I drink every once in a while or is it the nutritional diet I adhere to? Why is it that I can be exposed as an unvaccinated person yet not get the disease?
You've been exposed to someone with "all these diseases"? Measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio? Exposure to an "unvaccinated person" would not expose you to the disease. All those unvaccinated folks are protected by herd immunity. The problem is that there are so many unvaccinated people that herd immunity is failing in some places.
I don't even have a proof of vaccine/immunization record since birth... of course I had vaccinations for school and remember others like German measles... etc..
Healthcare growing up meant going to the doctor and paying for the service... we did not have a health plan or health insurance... I never had a blood test or type until I gave blood recently.
When our family doctor retired... the records were to be transferred to another doctor... well... somewhere along the line... they were lost... later it made it difficult when I was shopping for health insurance... just to show how complicated it can get.
Longevity runs in my family... basically, we work until we can't and die... Grandparents ran a small family dairy farm that was green before the term was used... worked everyday... as in 7 days a week when one has milk cows and lived well into their 90's and the kids were born at home... no hospitals.
I guess it is amazing anyone survived and thrived looking back.
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And here's the logic that is used by some on this thread....given the measles vaccine is 97% effective(CDC stats), there are many people still vulnerable even though they have been vaccinated. [quote]
Is that suppose to be evil, sarcastic or juvenile? It's interesting talking with you, that's for sure.
