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Are you white? I wouldn't imagine someone would call you a beaner if you are.
The thing about race is that it is impossible to walk around in someone else's shoes and really know what it is like to be another race.
I have only been to Greenville once (we are leaving tomorrow to visit again), but it was clear within 20 minutes of being there that Greenville is not the shangri-la that it is portrayed on this forum. There is a considerable amount of poverty and worn-down areas. Sure, a lot of (white) people waved at us and said "hi," but then again, we are white. Growing up in Texas, I realize that a lot of that southern hospitality can also be a way of keeping tabs on your neighbors. The only black person that said hi was the doorman at our hotel (the Westin Poinsett).
We went to two events on Main Street and they were both enjoyed overwhelmingly by clean-cut, conservative-looking white families. While there were some people of different cultures and race (we heard some foreign languages on Main Street), I couldn't help but think to myself what it would be like to look different in Greenville.
Being a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white guy, I can never really know.
Is there someone of darker skin color on this forum that has another perspective on eena's experiences here?
I'm black, and lived in Greenville. I've given my experience of living in Greenville on this forum (and others) before, but usually the responses I get are, "there must have been something wrong with me, I didn't try hard enough, or it must have been my attitude" type of thing. Usually whenever I try to express how my Greenville experience was get discredited, and discounted, and that was kinda how my experience was when living in Greenville anyway.
I see no reason to doubt the experience and legitimate feelings of sandlapper and eena and lots of other people who have felt put down in Greenville or in other places. I've lived and done work in a lot of areas besides the south, and although I normally felt very accepted, in one case I felt put down as a white southerner (that was in rural north-central PA in the early 80's, working as an instructor at a state university). So I can relate to the concerns that they mention.
There are two points that I'd like to make -
1. Greenville is not a homogeneous place. Although the voting patterns are heavily Republican, there are huge differences in perspectives between people with different backgrounds and between different geographic areas within Greenville County. So I can certainly see why sandlapper might have a very different experience from another black man, especially if they lived and worked in different places within the greater Greenville area.
2. Unfortunately for eena, over the past several years the illegal immigration debate has taken center stage. People who in the past would not have felt strongly one way or another are getting constant political commentary from politicians trying to get their votes and their dollars. The result is that some people who in the past were very welcoming in their behavior toward people that they perceived (correctly or incorrectly) to be from countries that produce a lot of illegal immigrants to the US, are now disapproving of people that they perceive (correctly or incorrectly) to be from countries that produce a lot of illegal immigrants to the US. This is unfair and a tragedy. It is also happening all over the country.
So if Greenville is not different than lots of other places, why do I like it so much? Well, I think there are some differences. For one thing, Greenville has a single school system, which has been declared a unitary district by the federal courts. So children of all socio-economic backgrounds and all ethnic backgrounds can get a good education in this district. For another thing, Greenville puts emphasis on the arts. The Fine Arts Center, the Governor's School, the various theaters and the Peace Center speak for a meaningful community investment in the arts. And arts are one of the best ways of bringing together people from different socio-economic and ethnic backgrounds. Finally, the international influence is substantial. I've mentioned it before - Greenville County has more international investment per capita than any other county in the US.
To those who wonder about what Greenville is really like - take the Skyliner challenge. Come down and visit us. Spend some time talking to people. Visit some of the vibrant, growing areas of Greenville, as well as some of the poorer areas. If you do research, you will see some things you like and some things you don't like. You may end up like eena, saying that overall you love the place but see some warts as well, and you can be a part of changing those things. Or you may end up like sandlapper, saying that Greenville is not for you. Viva la difference!
Are you white? I wouldn't imagine someone would call you a beaner if you are.
The thing about race is that it is impossible to walk around in someone else's shoes and really know what it is like to be another race.
I have only been to Greenville once (we are leaving tomorrow to visit again), but it was clear within 20 minutes of being there that Greenville is not the shangri-la that it is portrayed on this forum. There is a considerable amount of poverty and worn-down areas. Sure, a lot of (white) people waved at us and said "hi," but then again, we are white. Growing up in Texas, I realize that a lot of that southern hospitality can also be a way of keeping tabs on your neighbors. The only black person that said hi was the doorman at our hotel (the Westin Poinsett).
We went to two events on Main Street and they were both enjoyed overwhelmingly by clean-cut, conservative-looking white families. While there were some people of different cultures and race (we heard some foreign languages on Main Street), I couldn't help but think to myself what it would be like to look different in Greenville.
Being a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white guy, I can never really know.
Is there someone of darker skin color on this forum that has another perspective on eena's experiences here?
I do not think people that post on here proclaim greenville to be a "shangrila". In fact mostly what I read before I moved here was "come down and check it out, see if it is for you" and it was. I get waved to and said hi to by black whites, mexicans, all walks of life, I work in a warehouse and find that all of us get along beautifully, and trust me we have pretty much every nationality possible working there. I have only been here two months, but I live near Berea, which tends to be a more culturally diverse area. I am white, in case anyone was wondering, and this is only my experience, but I felt compelled to tell everyone about it. This in no way discounts others posts about their experiences, nor do I want to tell everyone that greenville is perfect. IT AIN'T AND NOWHERE IS!
Art,
Move to Los Angeles then you'd know. I was a minority for 9 years and it didn't bother me at all. People are people. My wife and I are an ethnically mixed couple and except for one very obvious incident in Fatz cafe of all places we've never had any problems.
I could be wrong but from reading your posts you're probably still fairly young (under 30) and you may have unfortunately been indoctrinated with a feeling of white guilt. I'm going to repost a true story that I posted in the politics forum which I witnessed first hand about 10 years ago. Just please read it and keep an open mind.Thanks:
Tank,
In the mid 90's I drove a taxi in Atlantic City for 2 1/2 years. I was 1 of 25 white, english speaking cabbies amongst 500 or so. A true minority, if you will. The majority of my co-workers were Indian, Pakistani, Haitian, Nigerian, etc. Since I worked an average of 12 hour shifts these people also became my close friends.
One evening at the Taj Mahal cab stand a stereotypical thuggish hip hop looking black guy came up to me and asked if I would take him, "back maryland" referring to Maryland Ave. a very sketchy area of AC known for gangs and drugs. I informed him that we work in a processional and that since I wasn't the next cab out I would be stealing a fare and directed him to the first cab in line.
This cab was operated by my friend Michel' from Haiti. Since I was only 4 or 5 cabs back I was privy to the conversation that unfolded. The thug dude walked up to Michel' and repeated the same request to Michel' that he did to me. He then proceeded to ask for a discount. Michel' was highly offended by that request and said, "discount, what do you mean?" The other guy replied, "Yo man, why you gotta do me like that? We brothers". To which Michel' replied, rather loudly, "brothers? We're brothers? Why are we brothers, because we're both black? Look at me (pinching his arm) I'm black like midnight and I work 60 hours a week to take care of my family. You're born and raised in America, America and you don't even have a job. I'm not your brother". The dude walked away muttering under his breath, "man forget you".
Two "black" men. One born and raised in America with all of the opportunities and advantages that it affords. The other, from a 3rd world country, darker than oil, unable to speak the native tongue until he learned yet worked like crazy to provide a better life for his family.
By the way, many if not most black immigrants from the carribbean and africa have a lot of contempt for african americans (and actually hate that term). They just shake their collective heads in disbelief that so many black americans have bought into the victim mentality. Even the poorest people in America have a tv and microwave meanwhile they're literally eating where they're pooping.
Art,
I hope that you saw the point that I was trying to make. In all honesty, I don't believe in racism, because I don't believe in races. I believe in the human race. I call it sin, but you can call it ignorance or just the flawed nature of mankind but it has been around since existence and sadly it will be with us until eternity. Thankfully, the color of ones skin is becoming less and lees relevant to an overwhelming majority of people. In Africa lighter skinned blacks look down on darker blacks, same in most of Asia. Are they being racist? Ironically many countries associate fair skin with high status while we here in America, and more specifically the upstate go to tanning salons and lay out baking our skin to look darker. lol I'm just hoping that you'll see that "racism" isn't what you're elitist college professors told you it was. Did you know that almost all of the slaves that came to America were sold by black Africans? Or that many slaves once they received their papers declaring them free turned around and purchased slaves themselves? Bottom line, blame whitey is not only old and tiresome it's factually incorrect. Pride, greed, hate. These emotions know no color.
Recently I was looking about moving to central NJ. One calculator I found online said that I would need to make 40% more to break even - mostly because of housing costs.
Hi RCfromgreenville,
I live in North-NJ and I can't help but chuckle when I hear someone wants to move into NJ! No offense to you at all! Right now, there is a mass-exodus to leave NJ b/c of the cost of living in the last 10 yrs has gone through the roof.
I am looking to get out of NJ (move to SC- undecided on area yet) because it has become almost impossible to live here with the extreme cost of living and extremely high housing costs, property taxes, etc.
It is very common for folks making a "VERY" good salary to work a 2nd job so they can actually pay all their bills. Now, I know this is generalizing, but I have lived in this area all my life and it has become very unaffordable.
The jobs are good, and the opportunites in NJ/NY area are great for the most part... but the cost of living is much higher.... the highest in the country for some NJ counties. Central NJ is very much the same as North-NJ for cost of living. I think that 40% higher than SC might be a little low even.
Average median housing cost as per 2 months ago in the county next to me is 523,000k. The average property taxes are between 7000 and 10,000 a yr for a normal house.
A starter home in NJ is about 300,000k - 400,000k, for a small 2 br, 1 ba, 800 sq. ft. home. (No I am not a realtor). Taxes on that starter home are about 5000. Even if you consder renting an apt, you are looking at 1000-1200 for a 1 br, or way higher for a 2 br apt, depending on the area.
Everything is very very fast paced here and a lot of competition for who can have the biggest house and the biggest SUV and the most toys on the block! This is just not for me anymore, I want to slow it down. We only get one life, and I am tired of working long long hours and it is so hard to get ahead here.
I want to get away from that mentality, which is why I am looking to leave Nj and go to SC. I am very lucky in the fact that I am transfering with my curent job and NJ salary. This will help the moving process tremendously!
RC, are you still thinking of NJ as a possible relocation area?
How true is your post! I live in Central NJ and will be moving to SC within a year. I will be retiring in 2008 and if "...making a "VERY" good salary to work a 2nd job so they can actually pay all their bills." is true, you can imagine for a person on a retired pension.
I have a home that is assessed at ~$170,000 and pay close to $8,000 in taxes. In SC, I will probably pay one tenth of that. We are planning on selling it and buy one in SC cash with what we make on the NJ home.
You are right, and it is sad to say sd because I love Central NJ, but it is very expensive to live here. My wife and I are in that group that is part of the "mass exodus". We will probably move to Anderson County because we have family there.
sfill and rferd, I work for a company that is headquartered in NYC. They would love for me to move to NJ, NY or Conn and work at one of the major sites up there. But my response is that they are going to have to increase my salary by about 50% to make it worthwhile. They aren't going to force me, but there are some better opportunities closer to the headquarters.
I could be wrong but from reading your posts you're probably still fairly young (under 30) and you may have unfortunately been indoctrinated with a feeling of white guilt.
I couldn't help but read this and respond.
So you think that Art suffers from White guilt simply because he took issue with a White guy's statement that essentially writes off a minority's racial/ethnic experiences as invalid? Where is that coming from? The truth of the matter is that race has always been salient for "the other," but this has only come to be true for Whites rather recently. It really humors me how some Whites would think that race is such a non-issue in America that simple daily experiences are just the same across the board for everyone. Now I'm not saying that I experience racial tension or anything like that on a daily basis, but I've got a few stories of my own (I'm Black, BTW) where it was clear as day that Whites were totally oblivious to what stood out to me so clearly as a minority.
I'm not really sure what the point was of the story you were trying to make with the Haitian cab driver, but that's a whole 'nother discussion entirely.
You cite examples that would somehow demonstrate that Whites don't have a monopoly on racism, but I'd say that your examples aren't appropriate at all. Most of them are examples of ethnic superiority, not racial superiority--which we tend not to distinguish in America for historical reasons. You also failed to mention how Europeans enslaved other Europeans (Slavic peoples, anyone?) and how historically, Europeans have distinguished themselves by skin tone (Hitler certainly didn't think that all Europeans were created equal). This, incidentally, is why it absolutely bugs me that people say "Well, Africans enslaved other Africans and sold them to Europeans." It is only recently that race has come to be categorically used in such a broad, sweeping manner. The fact is, like any other people in the world, African peoples viewed and view themselves as belonging to one group due to culture, not skin color. To a Fulani, a Dinka was just as "other" as a Frenchman. Europeans are allowed to have their distinct cultures preserved, but any person who lives in Africa just gets lumped in as African wth no distinction between ethnic groups. This is primarily due to the institution of slavery in America which erased cultural boundaries for African peoples, which should come as no surprise. Many (mostly Whites) would just love to believe it just happened way back then and exists in isolation from an evolving historical context, but that's simply not how it works.
How true is your post! I live in Central NJ and will be moving to SC within a year. I will be retiring in 2008 and if "...making a "VERY" good salary to work a 2nd job so they can actually pay all their bills." is true, you can imagine for a person on a retired pension.
I have a home that is assessed at ~$170,000 and pay close to $8,000 in taxes. In SC, I will probably pay one tenth of that. We are planning on selling it and buy one in SC cash with what we make on the NJ home.
You are right, and it is sad to say sd because I love Central NJ, but it is very expensive to live here. My wife and I are in that group that is part of the "mass exodus". We will probably move to Anderson County because we have family there.
Hope to meet you sometime in the future.
Hi Rferd,
Yes, it appears many hard working people like us are looking to get out of NJ b/c of the simple fact that you just can not afford to live a good quality of life there any longer. It is actually a nice place to live. I live 1 mile from the largest lake in the state, and it is a very nice area of NJ. But my 1.5 hour commute in traffic (35 miles) and high cost of living, etc... is just pushing me out.
Here is the way I look at it.
We only get one life and no matter what, you have to do what is right for you & your family in the end. Nobody else is going to do it for you or make your life better for you. So, whether that means moving to South Caroina or moving to the mountains of Brittish Columbia, then we all have to do what we feel is going to make the best life for us.
That is why it makes me insane reading these other postings on this forum, as if someone can know what is best for me or you or whoever... We all have different goals and needs in life that drive us.
I guess I have to take it all in with a grain of salt
Anyway - good luck with your move! And maybe we'll meet up unknowingly in the corner market! haha.
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