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Old 07-06-2015, 01:34 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post


The point you were trying to make is that it was normal for girls to go into puberty at an early age 1400 years ago then today.

You're being deceptive by trying to twist what your point was.
I am not. The premise of what I have been saying is that it is perfectly reasonable for a girl to have reached the age of puberty by the age of 9 and that the standard for maturity and marriageable age was at the age of puberty at the time of the Prophet (saw). Perhaps you misinterpreted what I was attempting to get across but I hope with this last statement it is clear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
So in your zeal to prove me wrong, you made a mistake. Perhaps you should not have been so zealous, as it does not serve you well as a representative of your faith.
Or I'm at work and have priorities...I don't have the time to review the entire 13 minute video but I did believe it was one of his Oxford debates so I posted it. I'm not on the edge of my seat waiting to respond to you Mr. Cupper and I don't really care if you accept Islam or what you think of it. When I have time I'll respond to honest inquiries by questioning individuals if I believe that I have an answer. Whether or not you "believe" the answer or "buy it" or "agree" is not of my concern, we all face God alone and I'll be worrying about myself on that day.

 
Old 07-06-2015, 01:51 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
"The *point* is that it is perfectly biologically possible and reasonable for a girl to reach puberty at an early age."

Possible but unlikely for a child to reach menarche at age 9...and menarche is part of a process towards puberty. Aisha hadn't reached menatche as she was still allowed to play with her dolls. As my research has shown, simply reaching menarche (first period) at a very early age does not mean men should be raping her. Morally and physically it is wrong.

"Given that the definition of maturity and marriageable/consummation age was puberty at the time of the Prophet (saw) then it's perfectly normal and reasonable for the Prophet (saw) to have had such a marriage. "

Well, no. Aisha had not even had her first period, let alone reached full puberty. Even after reaching puberty 53 year old men should not be raping girls. Humans are not barnyard animals. In this case, Muhammed should have stopped the rape of children and women instead of joining in. Same with slavery and murder and terrorism. If we look at Muhammed's actions overall, he was one of the most evil men to walk on earth. Rape of a child was only one of his many evils.

What is horrible today is to see that Muslims defend all his evil. Not one Muslim will speak against Muhammed's evil actions.

"Puberty is the process of physical changes through which a child's body matures into an adult body capable of sexual reproduction to enable fertilization. It is initiated by hormonal signals from the brain to the gonads: the ovaries in a girl, the testes in a boy. In response to the signals, the gonads produce hormones that stimulate libido and the growth, function, and transformation of the brain, bones, muscle, blood, skin, hair, breasts, and sex organs. Physical growth—height and weight—accelerates in the first half of puberty and is completed when the child has developed an adult body. Until the maturation of their reproductive capabilities, the pre-pubertal physical differences between boys and girls are the external sex organs.

On average, girls begin puberty at ages 10–11; boys at ages 11–12.[1][2] Girls usually complete puberty by ages 15–17,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

Rape is another issue. Certainly 9 year old Aisha did not want sexual intercourse with a 53 year old man.

It is terrible that people think it was (and is) good for a 53 year old man to force himself on a 9 year old child.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 02:06 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The *point* is that it is perfectly biologically possible and reasonable for a girl to reach puberty at an early age."

Possible but unlikely for a child to reach menarche at age 9...and menarche is part of a process towards puberty. Aisha hadn't reached menatche as she was still allowed to play with her dolls. As my research has shown, simply reaching menarche (first period) at a very early age does not mean men should be raping her. Morally and physically it is wrong.

"Given that the definition of maturity and marriageable/consummation age was puberty at the time of the Prophet (saw) then it's perfectly normal and reasonable for the Prophet (saw) to have had such a marriage. "

Well, no. Aisha had not even had her first period, let alone reached full puberty. Even after reaching puberty 53 year old men should not be raping girls. Humans are not barnyard animals. In this case, Muhammed should have stopped the rape of children and women instead of joining in. Same with slavery and murder and terrorism. If we look at Muhammed's actions overall, he was one of the most evil men to walk on earth. Rape of a child was only one of his many evils.

What is horrible today is to see that Muslims defend all his evil. Not one Muslim will speak against Muhammed's evil actions.

"Puberty is the process of physical changes through which a child's body matures into an adult body capable of sexual reproduction to enable fertilization. It is initiated by hormonal signals from the brain to the gonads: the ovaries in a girl, the testes in a boy. In response to the signals, the gonads produce hormones that stimulate libido and the growth, function, and transformation of the brain, bones, muscle, blood, skin, hair, breasts, and sex organs. Physical growth—height and weight—accelerates in the first half of puberty and is completed when the child has developed an adult body. Until the maturation of their reproductive capabilities, the pre-pubertal physical differences between boys and girls are the external sex organs.

On average, girls begin puberty at ages 10–11; boys at ages 11–12.[1][2] Girls usually complete puberty by ages 15–17,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

Rape is another issue. Certainly 9 year old Aisha did not want sexual intercourse with a 53 year old man.

It is terrible that people think it was (and is) good for a 53 year old man to force himself on a 9 year old child.
Pdx2Houston has found many ways to excuse that behavior.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Pdx2Houston has found many ways to excuse that behavior.
What is there to excuse?

While among Muslims we do have different opinions about Aisha. There are Muslims who believe she was never married to Muhammad(saws) and the Ahadith that refer to her are fabrications.

Among those of us who believe she did exist and was married to Muhammad(saws) we may disagree about her chronological age age, but we all agree she was physically and mentally mature.

No where does Islam permit or avocate Sexual relations with a person who is not physically and mentally mature.

We believe very similar about Mariam the mother of Prophet Isa(a.s.) she was very yung when Jesusas born from 10-12 years old. But was mentally a physically a Mature woman.

In the scriptures, Muslims find sacred, Torah, Psalms and the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) there are instances of women being fully mature at very young ages. No one seems to doubt their maturity.

Bible: Child Marriage in Ancient Israelite times – Paedophilia?
By Discover The Truth • September 14, 2013

In Biblical times people were married at a very young age. Girls were usually betrothed before they reached puberty – majority of the time the marriage would have consummated when the girl reached puberty, and that was usually between the ages of 8, 9 or older
Bible: Child Marriage in Ancient Israelite times

1. Rashi’s commentary on Genesis 25:20 says:
forty years old: For when Abraham came from Mount Moriah, he was informed that Rebecca had been born. Isaac was then thirty-seven years old, for at that time Sarah died, and from the time that Isaac was born until the “Binding” [of Isaac], when Sarah died, were thirty-seven years, for she was ninety years old when Isaac was born, and one hundred and twenty-seven when she died, as it is stated (above 23:1): “The life of Sarah was [a hundred and twenty-seven years.”] This makes Isaac thirty-seven years old, and at that time, Rebecca was born. He waited for her until she would be fit for marital relations-three years-and then married her.— [From Gen. Rabbah 57:1
[Retrieved it from this website: ]Genesis - Chapter 25 (Parshah Chayei Sarah and Toldot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

The Anglican Priest Herbert Danby in the Book: ‘The Mishnah: Translated from the Hebrew with Introduction and Brief Explanatory notes.’ It says that a girl of three years old and one day could be betrothed by the brother’s husband and he can have intercourse with her.

“A girl three years old and one day may be betrothed by intercourse; her deceased childless husband’s brother can acquire her by intercourse; and by connexion with her a man can be culpable by virtue of the Law of a married woman; and him that has connexion with her [while she is a menstruant] she renders unclean so that he conveys uncleanness to what is beneath him in like degree as [he that has a flux conveys uncleanness] to what lies above him’ if she married to a priest she may eat of Heave-offering; if one that is ineligible has connexion with her he renders her ineligible for marriage with a priest; if any of the forbidden degrees prescribed in the Law had connexion with her they are put to death on her account, but she is not culpable. If she is younger than this, it is as one that puts a finger in the eye.”

Bible: Child Marriage in Ancient Israelite times


That is for reference only to point out that there is a precedent for chronologically young girls to bementally physically, mentaslly mature women.

Some possible explanations

1. An abnormal Development
2. In some parts of the world advanced development was/is normal
3. A genuine miracle done through the will of God(swt0

In any event Islam does not advocate pedophilia and Muhammad(saws) was not a pedophile.
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Old 07-06-2015, 05:53 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What is there to excuse?

While among Muslims we do have different opinions about Aisha. There are Muslims who believe she was never married to Muhammad(saws) and the Ahadith that refer to her are fabrications.

Among those of us who believe she did exist and was married to Muhammad(saws) we may disagree about her chronological age age, but we all agree she was physically and mentally mature.

No where does Islam permit or avocate Sexual relations with a person who is not physically and mentally mature.

We believe very similar about Mariam the mother of Prophet Isa(a.s.) she was very yung when Jesusas born from 10-12 years old. But was mentally a physically a Mature woman.

In the scriptures, Muslims find sacred, Torah, Psalms and the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) there are instances of women being fully mature at very young ages. No one seems to doubt their maturity.

Bible: Child Marriage in Ancient Israelite times – Paedophilia?
By Discover The Truth • September 14, 2013

In Biblical times people were married at a very young age. Girls were usually betrothed before they reached puberty – majority of the time the marriage would have consummated when the girl reached puberty, and that was usually between the ages of 8, 9 or older
Bible: Child Marriage in Ancient Israelite times

1. Rashi’s commentary on Genesis 25:20 says:
forty years old: For when Abraham came from Mount Moriah, he was informed that Rebecca had been born. Isaac was then thirty-seven years old, for at that time Sarah died, and from the time that Isaac was born until the “Binding” [of Isaac], when Sarah died, were thirty-seven years, for she was ninety years old when Isaac was born, and one hundred and twenty-seven when she died, as it is stated (above 23:1): “The life of Sarah was [a hundred and twenty-seven years.”] This makes Isaac thirty-seven years old, and at that time, Rebecca was born. He waited for her until she would be fit for marital relations-three years-and then married her.— [From Gen. Rabbah 57:1
[Retrieved it from this website: ]Genesis - Chapter 25 (Parshah Chayei Sarah and Toldot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

The Anglican Priest Herbert Danby in the Book: ‘The Mishnah: Translated from the Hebrew with Introduction and Brief Explanatory notes.’ It says that a girl of three years old and one day could be betrothed by the brother’s husband and he can have intercourse with her.

“A girl three years old and one day may be betrothed by intercourse; her deceased childless husband’s brother can acquire her by intercourse; and by connexion with her a man can be culpable by virtue of the Law of a married woman; and him that has connexion with her [while she is a menstruant] she renders unclean so that he conveys uncleanness to what is beneath him in like degree as [he that has a flux conveys uncleanness] to what lies above him’ if she married to a priest she may eat of Heave-offering; if one that is ineligible has connexion with her he renders her ineligible for marriage with a priest; if any of the forbidden degrees prescribed in the Law had connexion with her they are put to death on her account, but she is not culpable. If she is younger than this, it is as one that puts a finger in the eye.”

Bible: Child Marriage in Ancient Israelite times


That is for reference only to point out that there is a precedent for chronologically young girls to bementally physically, mentaslly mature women.

Some possible explanations

1. An abnormal Development
2. In some parts of the world advanced development was/is normal
3. A genuine miracle done through the will of God(swt0

In any event Islam does not advocate pedophilia and Muhammad(saws) was not a pedophile.
The old Hebrews of the OT were just as perverted as Mohammed in having and endorsing marriages and sexual relations with young girls.

Their excuses are no better than Mohammed's, and just because it was a different time and a different place as well as common practice, does not make it right. Slavery was practiced back then also an endorsed, and that still doesn't make slavery right.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 07:30 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
"While among Muslims we do have different opinions about Aisha."

I look at what the Islamic hadiths and the Quran say. I have spoken to hundreds of Muslims and do not find them reliable.

I am not a Christian and would go to the Christian forum to discuss Christian issues. I am here to discuss Islam. But I can say that ANY man that has sex (indeed, rapes) a little child (and 9 years old is a little child) is evil. No Muslim will say that Muhammed was evil to have sex with Aisha.

"No where does Islam permit or advocate Sexual relations with a person who is not physically and mentally mature."

That is not the case:

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
Qur'an Text/Transliteration 65:4
Here the 'Iddah is prescribed to three categories of women:

First the phrase: “Yaisna min al-maheedhi” which means “those women who are desperate of menses” is an indication to women who reached the stage of menstruation but do not menstruate and of those who reached menopause. Desperate of menses underlines that it concerns women who though reached the age, fail to menstruate too. Their 'Iddah period is three months.
Next comes, “Wallaee Lam yahidhna” which means “those who have not menstruated yet” This group of females are pre-pubescent girls who have not yet menstruated. Here the 'Iddah prescribed for them is equal to the previous group of women (ie. three months).
Lastly, the women who are pregnant - their prescribed 'iddah is until they have given birth.


Pedophilia in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

The evidence is massive.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

I have previously posted verses from the hadiths many times showing that Muhammed had sex with Aisha when she was nine years old, including verses saying that she was, at that time, playing with dolls and swinging with her playmates.

One of your arguments is that Aisha herself was the only source of information about Muhammed having sex with her when she was nine and that the translator in all cases was an unreliable source who had memory problems.

Aisha's Age of Consummation - WikiIslam
 
Old 07-06-2015, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"While among Muslims we do have different opinions about Aisha."

I look at what the Islamic hadiths and the Quran say. I have spoken to hundreds of Muslims and do not find them reliable.

I am not a Christian and would go to the Christian forum to discuss Christian issues. I am here to discuss Islam. But I can say that ANY man that has sex (indeed, rapes) a little child (and 9 years old is a little child) is evil. No Muslim will say that Muhammed was evil to have sex with Aisha.

"No where does Islam permit or advocate Sexual relations with a person who is not physically and mentally mature."

That is not the case:

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
Qur'an Text/Transliteration 65:4
Here the 'Iddah is prescribed to three categories of women:

First the phrase: “Yaisna min al-maheedhi” which means “those women who are desperate of menses” is an indication to women who reached the stage of menstruation but do not menstruate and of those who reached menopause. Desperate of menses underlines that it concerns women who though reached the age, fail to menstruate too. Their 'Iddah period is three months.
Next comes, “Wallaee Lam yahidhna” which means “those who have not menstruated yet” This group of females are pre-pubescent girls who have not yet menstruated. Here the 'Iddah prescribed for them is equal to the previous group of women (ie. three months).
Lastly, the women who are pregnant - their prescribed 'iddah is until they have given birth.


Pedophilia in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

The evidence is massive.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

I have previously posted verses from the hadiths many times showing that Muhammed had sex with Aisha when she was nine years old, including verses saying that she was, at that time, playing with dolls and swinging with her playmates.

One of your arguments is that Aisha herself was the only source of information about Muhammed having sex with her when she was nine and that the translator in all cases was an unreliable source who had memory problems.

Aisha's Age of Consummation - WikiIslam
Hisham was not the translator. He was the author of the Hadith. When he was in his 70s he wrote that Aisha told him she was 6 years old when she married Muhhammad(saws) and 9 years old when the marriage was consummated.

Aisha died when Hisham was 11 years old.

There is no doubt Hisham actuall wrote "Narrated; by Aisha etc etc "

The question is did she actual say that to a little boy when she was 60 or more years old. and they is no indication she ever said that to anyone else?
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Addendum to above:

When Hisham moved to Iraq at the age of 71 he wrote down his memories of what people told him about Muhammad(saws). Muhammad had died 35 years before he was born. His notes of his memories are the source for many Ahadith about Aisha.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-06-2015, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
But why do I try? Allah (swt) has already explained what he has done to the likes of Islamophobes...
"And who could be more wicked than he to whom his Sustainer's messages are conveyed and who thereupon turns away from them, forgetting all [the evil] that his hands may have wrought?
Behold, over their hearts have We laid veils which prevent them {the Kuffar} from grasping the truth, and into their ears, deafness; and though thou call them onto the right path, they will never allow themselves to be guided."
Quran (18:57) {mine}
The above verse do not present a good image of Allah.

1. First Allah condone and promote the very primal instinct of 'us versus them," i.e. "Muslims versus Kuffar."
You are influenced as well in using the term "Islamophobe" [irrational fears of Islam] which false and not reflective of reality. It a fact in general, Islam [in part] generate real fears in non-Muslims.

2. The qualities of compassion, mercy, forgiveness, beneficent are the supposed attributes of Allah. Allah is claimed to be omnipotent and merciful but he deliberately prevent the Kuffar from any possibility of being good.
This indicate there is something wrong here. A supposedly good God would never do such a thing, i.e. being so vengeful and vindictive, i.e. deliberately shut out disbelievers and then torture them in hell when he has the power to make sure everything is fine.
Allah's compassion is merely conditional, i.e. only if one is a Muslim. A good person or God should be merciful unconditionally and absolutely.

When one read the Quran and Muhammad relation to it, it is very obvious the Quran was the word a man rather than a supreme omnipotent God.
 
Old 07-06-2015, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Hisham was not the translator. He was the author of the Hadith. When he was in his 70s he wrote that Aisha told him she was 6 years old when she married Muhhammad(saws) and 9 years old when the marriage was consummated.

Aisha died when Hisham was 11 years old.

There is no doubt Hisham actuall wrote "Narrated; by Aisha etc etc "

The question is did she actual say that to a little boy when she was 60 or more years old. and they is no indication she ever said that to anyone else?
You are trying your best to eel out of the situation and it won't work.

The main points are;
1. Married at 6 consummated at 9.
2. Playing with dolls
3. Reported in the various hadiths
4. Supported implicitly by Quran verse.

The supporting points are;
1. The high libido of Muhammad.
2. The various scandals driven by sex, i.e. many wives, Zainab scandal, the Coptic slave, etc.
3. Done after the death of the controlling Khadija
4. 4% of any population as pedophilic tendencies.


In the first place, the above issue should not have entered into the narratives of any spiritual or religious setting which primary purpose is to deal with eschatological and soteriological matters. It is a BIG mistake that such issue is embroiled within a religion.

The fact is when such matters [of dubious morality] are mixed with a religion, they are taken by many believers as eternal principles sanctioned and condoned by God. The problem with Islam is there are no central authority as to who is right and who is wrong.

Regardless of a percentage of Muslims who are good, and since there are no central authority, the reality is SOME Muslims who has pedophile tendencies will take advantage of such a pedophilic example that is related to Muhammad as a perfect example for mankind.

The fact that such an pedophilic example which is of the lowest morality is imbued into a holy texts demonstrate there is something wrong from the start.
It support the hypothesis that the so-called divine revelations were actually the words of a man and not God.
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