Why is Islam so violent? (heaven, verses, hell, convert)

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by juju33312

PS: I looked briefly at your article on Aisha and it is the same old apologetic excuses. For example:

"According to a hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE."

She did not go to fight, she went as his little sex toy.

Also:
The women and young children went on the battlefield after the battle and gave water to the wounded Muslims and finished off the enemy wounded. al-Tabari vol.12 p.127,146. During the days of the battle, the women and children were there to dig graves for the dead. al-Tabari vol.12 p.107.

Every single excuse given has been shot down many times. All authentic sources of Aisha’s own testimony and that of others in the hadith confirm she was aged nine at the time Muhammed started raping her. Not one of the hadiths gives Aisha's age as anything else.

Can you say that Muhammed was evil to rape a little 9 year old child?

I can say he did not rape anyone.

[Tzaphkiel]

regarding the rape of young girls, that is actually the heaven that is promised to Muslim males, each is rewarded with 72 virgins with full-grown, swelling breasts, receptive vaginas, and a permanent erection.

Orthodox Muslim theologians such as al-Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and al-Ash'ari (died 935 CE) have all discussed the sensual pleasures found in Paradise, relating hadith that describe Paradise as a slave market where there will be "no buy and sale, but... If any man will wish to have sexual intercourse with a woman, he will do at once."

It is quoted by Ibn Kathir, in his Qur'anic Commentary, the Tafsir ibn Kathir, and they are graphically described by Qur'anic commentator and polymath, al-Suyuti (died 1505), who, echoing a hasan hadith from Ibn Majah, wrote that the perpetual virgins will all "have appetizing vaginas", and that the "penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal".

Each time we sleep with a Houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [i.e. Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vaginas.
Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an, p. 351

The hadith from Sunan al-Tirmidhi has been graded hasan sahih gharib (a “fair, sound, single-chained hadith”). Additionally there is not only one "72 virgins" hadith. We have quoted narrations here that have been graded both hasan (good) and sahih (authentic), and there are others in addition.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by juju33312

Again:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

This is a direct question and a direct response. "They are from them."

If you think about the meaning of this, it is so hateful. The lives of the women and children do not matter because they are from infidels. And this is the prophet of Islam speaking and setting an example!

Also, I posted a verse that gives permission to slaughter children that would not grow up to be Muslims. Terrible. I have recently seen photos of babies beheaded by Muslims and I think of this. It is heartbreaking.

Another example is the beheading of the boys with any pubic hair.
Book 38, Number 4390:
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubic) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

Boys as young as 13 or 14 were executed...and they were not in combat as there had been no combat! There's some context!

I should mention that while the men were being slaughtered one woman literally lost her mind as her family was being killed. Aisha later recounted:

Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2665: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: “ No woman of Banu [tribe] Qurayzah was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah . . . was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? . . . I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. [Aisha] said: The man took her and beheaded her. [Aisha] said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed.”

Maybe she was lucky. The other women were passed out as booty and raped and enslaved or sold.

"This is no different from the punishment prescribed for Adultry in the Torah."

Never, ever try to excuse evil by pointing to other evil. Why do all Muslims do this? The discussion here is Islam and please...no red herrings. Can you say that Muhammed was evil for having this woman stoned to death? Yes or no.

There are many accounts in different hadiths of Muhammed raping Aisha when she was nine years old, and not all of them are from Aisha. There is no dispute about what Muhammed did and how old she was. Except apologetics who are at least secretly ashamed of Muhammed's actions with a child.

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

I have been through this hundreds of times with over 2,000 Muslims. I am so over this. I know what is in the Quran and hadiths. I am now seriously trying to figure out the answers to my questions.

Let me ask you a different question:
Do YOU think it was OK for Muhammed to have sex with a little 4th grader? Or can you say that he was evil to rape a child? Was Muhammed really a perfect example? Or one of the most evil men to walk the earth? Rape, murder. torture,, terrorism, theft, slavery, selling women, hitting a child, ordering women to be slaughtered....can you say that Muhammed was evil to do such things? Yes or no.

From above:

"This is no different from the punishment prescribed for Adultry in the Torah."

Never, ever try to excuse evil by pointing to other evil. Why do all Muslims do this? The discussion here is Islam and please...no red herrings. Can you say that Muhammed was evil for having this woman stoned to death? Yes or no.

Muslims are obligated to follow the Torah in areas it does not contradict the Qur'an.

We are to follow all the Prophets (PBUT) that preceded Muhammad(saws)

We consider 4 Books to be Sacred Scripture

Torah
Zaboor
Injil
Qur'an

[juju33312]

No, a 53 year old man does not have 4th graders wanting to have sex with him. Try a test. Go into a 4th grade classroom and start trying to have sex with the little girls. See if they want to do that.

I have worked with little girls who have been raped by men. Believe me, they did not ask for it. They are ripped apart. Many cannot urinate properly.

Go to the hadiths and read about what happened to Aisha. How they took her away from swinging with her girlfriends so Muhammed could screw her.

And this 53 year old pedophile who raped a child was calling himself a prophet and claiming the creator of the universe told him to do that! This same creator of the universe also gave Muhammed and his men the OK to mass rape women in front of their husbands!

How can you defend such evil? How can you make excuses for this terrible behavior? How can you defend such a monster?

And today we see the results. Beheading children and babies, journalists and Christians, honor killings, terrorism, mass rape and slaughter, child brides, thighing babies, beating and stoning women, backwardness, illiteracy, horrible human rights abuses, the dancing boys in Afghanistan, riots all over Europe, the destruction of countries like Sweden and Denmark, death threats for drawing a cartoon of the monster that started it all.

Aisha was raped. Raped by a 53 year old monster when she was 9 years old and playing with dolls and swinging with girlfriends. My heart breaks for her and all those little girls that followed. And not one Muslim will stand up and say Muhammed was evil to rape a child. All I hear is pathetic excuses for his terrible evils and love for this monster. And that is how I know that there are no good Muslims. Not one.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by juju33312

No, a 53 year old man does not have 4th graders wanting to have sex with him. Try a test. Go into a 4th grade classroom and start trying to have sex with the little girls. See if they want to do that.

I have worked with little girls who have been raped by men. Believe me, they did not ask for it. They are ripped apart. Many cannot urinate properly.

Go to the hadiths and read about what happened to Aisha. How they took her away from swinging with her girlfriends so Muhammed could screw her.

And this 53 year old pedophile who raped a child was calling himself a prophet and claiming the creator of the universe told him to do that! This same creator of the universe also gave Muhammed and his men the OK to mass rape women in front of their husbands!

How can you defend such evil? How can you make excuses for this terrible behavior? How can you defend such a monster?

And today we see the results. Beheading children and babies, journalists and Christians, honor killings, terrorism, mass rape and slaughter, child brides, thighing babies, beating and stoning women, backwardness, illiteracy, horrible human rights abuses, the dancing boys in Afghanistan, riots all over Europe, the destruction of countries like Sweden and Denmark, death threats for drawing a cartoon of the monster that started it all.

Aisha was raped. Raped by a 53 year old monster when she was 9 years old and playing with dolls and swinging with girlfriends. My heart breaks for her and all those little girls that followed. And not one Muslim will stand up and say Muhammed was evil to rape a child. All I hear is pathetic excuses for his terrible evils and love for this monster. And that is how I know that there are no good Muslims. Not one.

According to Aisha she asked Muhammad(saws) to marry her. She was bethroed to another and when she saw Muhammad(saws) she terminatd the engagement and married Muhammad(saws)

Such young marriages were the Norm at the time.

Yes today it would be an atrocity and highly illegal. But one needs to judge by the norms and customs of the era, not how we in this era feel.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

According to Aisha she asked Muhammad....to marry her. She was bethroed to another and when she saw Muhammad.... she terminatd the engagement and married Muhammad....

.... one needs to judge by the norms and customs of the era, not how we in this era feel.

what is disturbing and dangerous about this....and you are defending it....is that it the child molester is blaming the little girl. The rapist is blaming the victim. "She asked for it" it is her fault. "she wanted it" it is her fault. any human being knows this is wrong, so the perpetrator goes to great lengths to justify it. Aisha the 6 year old wanted it. So of course it is OK for Muhammad the 53-year old to have his way.

That is what you are defending. Any person who defends this and justifies it, they have blood on their hands. Today. Now. In the year 2015. Not in ancient history. Now. Do you have any idea how offensive and violent and repulsive this attitude is? Is this how we want our children and grandchildren to be treated? That is the role model that Islam praises and emulates, adores and perpetuates.

[juju33312]

"According to Aisha she asked Muhammad(saws) to marry her. She was bethroed to another and when she saw Muhammad(saws) she terminatd the engagement and married Muhammad(saws)"

Post the hadith verse that says that.

Here's what I am reading:

According to Abu Ja‘far (Al-Tabari): The Messenger of God married her, so it is said, in Shawwal, and consummated his marriage to her in a later year, also in Shawwal. (The History of Al-Tabari: The Foundation of the Community, translated by M.V. McDonald annotated by W. Montgomery Watt [State University of New York Press, Albany 1987], Volume VII, pp. 6-7)

Sa‘id b. Yahya b. Sa‘id al-Umawi- his father- Muhammad b. ‘Amr- Yahya b. ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Hatib- ‘A’isha: When Khadijah died, Khawlah bt. Hakim b. Umayyah b. al-Awqas, wife of ‘Uthman b. Maz‘un, who was in Mecca, said [to the Messenger of God], "O Messenger of God, will you not marry?" He replied, "Whom?" "A maiden," she said, "if you like, or a non-maiden." He replied, "Who is the maiden?" "The daughter of the dearest creature of God to you," she answered, "‘A’ishah bt. Abi Bakr." He asked, "And who is the non-maiden?" "Sawdah bt. Zam‘ah b. Qays," she replied, "she has [long] believed in you and has followed you." [So the Prophet] asked her to go and propose to them on his behalf.

She went to Abu Bakr’s house, where she found Umm Ruman, mother of ‘A’ishah, and said, "O Umm Ruman, what a good thing and a blessing has God brought to you!" She said, "What is that?" Khawlah replied, "The Messenger of God has sent me to ask for ‘A’ishah’s hand in marriage on his behalf." She answered, "I ask that you wait for Abu Bakr, for he should be on his way." When Abu Bakr came, Khawlah repeated what she had said. He replied, "She is [like] his brother’s daughter. Would she be appropriate for him?" When Khawlah returned to the Messenger of God and told him about it he said, "Go back to him and say that he is my brother in Islam and that I am his brother [in Islam], so his daughter is good for me." She came to Abu Bakr and told him what the Messenger of God had said. Then he asked her to wait until he returned.

Nothing about her seeing Muhammed and wanting to marry him when she was six years old. My mouth is hanging open that you would suggest a six year old would be interested in marrying a 53 year old man. How can you think that??

More:

Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

To make it even more perverted, Muhammed claimed that the creator of the universe wanted him to marry and rape a child:

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.

Next you say:

"Such young marriages were the Norm at the time."

No, they were not, and you offer no proof. But let's assume it was the norm. Muhammed was supposed to be a prophet bringing good and setting an example. Instead, he rapes a child rapes and sells and enslaves women, slaughters people, steals, hits a child, demands terrorism and hate, etc, etc. He joins in the pedophile orgy you claim was going on!

This is what really gets me. I can say that ANYONE who does such evil things IS evil. ANY man that rapes and slaughters and sells and enslaves women and demands terrorism and hate and murder is EVIL. No matter when or how many men do it or who that man is...a priest, Jesus, Muhammed the pope, Michael Jackson, the king of england, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs...ANY MAN that rapes a child is evil.

But NOT ONE MUSLIM say that Muhammed was evil to do this perverted, horrible thing. WHY? Why must ALL MUSLIMS protect an evil man and his evil ideology?

"But one needs to judge by the norms and customs of the era, not how we in this era feel."

NO! Rape is NEVER good. Murder is NEVER good! Terrorism is NEVER good! Raping children is NEVER good. Evil is NEVER good! To suggest such a thing is completely immoral!!!

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

what is disturbing and dangerous about this....and you are defending it....is that it the child molester is blaming the little girl. The rapist is blaming the victim. "She asked for it" it is her fault. "she wanted it" it is her fault. any human being knows this is wrong, so the perpetrator goes to great lengths to justify it. Aisha the 6 year old wanted it. So of course it is OK for Muhammad the 53-year old to have his way.

That is what you are defending. Any person who defends this and justifies it, they have blood on their hands. Today. Now. In the year 2015. Not in ancient history. Now. Do you have any idea how offensive and violent and repulsive this attitude is? Is this how we want our children and grandchildren to be treated? That is the role model that Islam idolizes

There is no defending needed. The Marriage between Muhammad(saws) was approved by Allaah(swt).

I may not understand why Allaah(swt) does as he does, but it is not for the creation to question the creator.

[juju33312]

"The Marriage between Muhammad(saws) was approved by Allaah(swt). "

You think the creator of the universe likes pedophilia? Really?

And how about the raping of women and the slavery and selling women and hitting Aisha and having people slaughtered? The terrorism and the hate and torture and murder? Even Muslim against Muslim...over 11 MILLION Muslims have been slaughtered since 1846...by OTHER MUSLIMS! The slaughter continues every day...in the name of Islam. In the name of Muhammed and his champion, allah.

How about all the times I have proved you wrong? Will you just ignore that? Erase it from your mind and continue on with the lies firmly established in your head? How can you? Do you care nothing for truth? Do you not see what Islam is doing today?

If you saw Muhammed raping this poor child, would you stand by? Do nothing? Watch. Hold her down in the name of allah?
Smack her around like Muhammed's friends did? Like Muhammed did?

All the evil that Muhammed passed down was made possible by this attitude...that if Muhammed did it, no matter what it is, it is wonderful and a perfect example.

You are lost. And you do not have ignorance as an excuse.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

There are several different topics here. A bit more than I can keep track of in one post.

Actually it is a very simple argument to answer the OP, i.e.

1. Human variables are distributed on a continuum - Normal Curve.
2. A continuum from evil to good exists for all [incl. Muslims]
3. 60% of the verses in the Quran [core of Islam] contain various degrees of evil laden elements.
4. Evil prone Muslims [20% -300 million] are influenced by 60% of the evil verse to commit evil.
5. The above is why Islam [in part] is inherently so violent and evil [OP].

One stats [amongst many others] re incidents involving fatalities is the following [26,072];



The above refer to only incidents [not number of victims] that involved fatalities. There are many thousands of evil acts by Muslims without fatalities.

The last 3 paragraphs are the only ones i feel confident of giving even a
partial reply to:
except it fails to take into consideration that we believe all who die as
Muslims will reach heaven. We do believe we will be punished for our sins, but
after the punishment we will reach Heaven. Very few sins will cause a muslim to
spend eternity in hell, such as becoming an apostate, worshiping anyone instead
of or in addition to Allaah(swt).

My point was not applicable to ALL Muslims. I understand all those who qualify as Muslims are promised heaven and those Muslims who sinned will be punished in transition to heaven.
My point was, some [20% =300 millions] Muslims who are zealous and evil prone will attempt to comply fully with the Quran to ensure they are very certain of going to heaven directly. Since the 60% of the verses of the Quran contain evil laden verses of various degrees, it is inevitable these zealous evil prone Muslims will end up committing evil acts against non-Muslims [infidels, Kuffar].
The proof and glaring evidence of this is supported by the statistics above.

Poor comparission. You have about the same ratio of evil doers among all
people. A very huge number of Americans are criminals. In fact the USA has the
Highest number of incarcerated people in the world./
So far this year there have been over 1,000 shootings in Chicago alone.

This is the common tu quoque fallacy to deflect from the real issue and root causes. I hope you understand [philosophically] this is a serious intellectual infraction of rational thinking that must be avoided.
All evil acts must be condemned and dealt with, i.e. find the root causes and find preventive solutions.
The OP is specific to Islam & Violence.
It is only logically that I mentioned the terrible violence associated with Islam [part] and some Muslims.
Note my basic argument above to support this point and vice versa.

While we do believe the Qur'an is the exact word of Allaah(swt) as
individuals we do question as to what the words mean there are countless Tafsir
and Fatwas explaining each and every ayyat. Very few if any have 100% consensus
as to the meaning. But we do agree they are the exact word of Allaah(swt)

Even the shortest Surat--al Kauthar
All Muslims will agree that the exact words Allaah(swt) said are:
Inna aAAtaynaka alkawthara
Fasalli lirabbika wainhar
Inna shaniaka huwa alabtaru
There is no question, doubt or disagreement those are the exact words
said.
Now as to what they mean, that is open to Opinion, Translation and
interpretation.
Just looking at some English translations
........
we are not and can not be blind followers, each of us is obligated to
evaluate all opinions and to always question. No Human has the right or ability
to state his opinion/interpretation is the correct one. We need to ask and be
shown why any person arrives at the interpretation he arrives at and to not
agree unless we our self have found reason to believe it is true.

The biggest mistake is to believe the Quran is the exact word of Allah.
Since this is the major premise, the conclusions that follow are a mess. GIGO.
The Quran is most likely the work of humans, either Muhammad's own or compiled by a group of clergy for various religious or political purposes.

Nevertheless if we are to use any religious texts for religious [soteriological] purpose or otherwise, we need to understand its historical and other contexts.
What I read of the story behind verse 108 is.
This verse 108 was a self-consolation for Muhammad when he was called a 'tailless man' i.e. one having no sons by one al As Ibn Wail.
If any universal principles is to be extracted from this verse, it should at least pass the moral test. However 108:3 is a very childish counter and immoral which can only come from some low grade human and not a wise God.

Very few if any Muslims will consider any ayyat as being a command. Most of us to not see the Qur'an as being a book of commands, we see it as examples of hows and whys and the consequenses for our actions. It is a Revelation of Self responsibility and not blind obedience.

The majority of Muslims would not have read the Quran and if they do read, they are not likely to understand it thoroughly. [that is a positive for humanity].
However, what my post is about is the concern of the critical few [note Pareto 80/20] rule. Note 'some,' if 20% is 300 millions!!!
What is most critical is the zealots and the clergy who spend their whole life reading the trilogy of Quran, Sira and Hadiths and naturally get brainwashed by the more than 55% of evil laden verses from that trilogy. They are the ones who worked up the vulnerable Muslims to a frenzy every Friday and elsewhere.

There is not a thing in the Qur'an that will get us into heaven. Only the Mercy and forgiveness of Allaah(swt) will do that. The Qur'an is a revelation of what is beyond this Dunya. The Sunnah, Fiqh, Ahadith and Madhabs are guides on how to stay on the Path revealed in the Qur'an.

The Quran is the revelation and reminder for Muslims and obviously they have to be guided and obey whatever commands and proposition in the Quran communicated via the clergy or read directly by Muslims.
It is stated in the Quran that anyone who deny the revelations [obviously that include compliance with what is reveal] will go to hell or punished severely if they sinned.