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Old 05-16-2013, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,865 posts, read 10,528,229 times
Reputation: 5504

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
It's not a broad generalization. It's the only logical conclusion that can be derived from the facts. Someone who believes something to be true without a single shred of evidence, out of fear or hope, cannot be considered intelligent, period. Everyone likes to think they're intelligent, but very few people actually are.

Furthermore, it's pointless to even try to have a rational discussion with religious people because, if that were possible, there would be no religious people.
You're being a bigot here man, that's demonstrably untrue. While the belief may be irrational, many religious people are otherwise rationale in all other spheres, and some are even geniuses. Pope Benedict, for instance, is obviously a believer, but also unquestionably a keen intellect who writes marvelously eloquent and beautiful essays I couldn't hope to equal. Ever debate with a Jesuit? Your point of view here is based on arrogance and is totally foolish, nothing good can come of so grossly underestimating the abilities of most of the human race and if you go on thinking like that you won't see it coming when some religious person totally outwits you in some sphere of life. The world is not so black and white as you paint it and it may make you feel all superior to think like that but it's just as much an opinion coloured by personal desire or psychological need for reality to be a certain way that it is not, and by expressing it you're showing you're no less capable of human failings.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:59 PM
 
291 posts, read 476,570 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
So I guess I'm not intelligent. I'll take your word for it, Paparappa.

As humans, we really know next to nothing about the cosmos - as an amateur astronomer and philosopher, I think I can say this quite confidently. Sure, there are mathematicians and physicists who think they are close to the answers, but then some unexpected finding forces them to rethink all their notions of how the universe works and admit that they really don't know all that much. Our theories about how the universe and life evolved sound so solidly scientific, but there is so much missing from our understanding that it is sheer arrogance for anyone to say that people who believe in some sort of higher power are stupid - because really, what do you know? What do any of us know?
This has nothing to do with science. We don't know where we come from, nor does science have a definite answer. This does not mean it makes sense to just make something up and believe it. The odds of there being a God aren't any lower than the odds of us being a computer simulation, or any other crazy theory I could come up with (though the existence of God would be in and of itself paradoxical, since if you accept the premise that something can exist without needing a creator then you could easily apply that to our universe, but that's another discussion altogether).

Quote:
But you know nothing more about the secrets of the universe than any believer does, and all of us know next-to-nothing when it comes down to it, so let's not pretend we do by making categorical statements.
The difference being I don't believe in stuff that's clearly made up by humans.
Quote:
200 years ago, the science of the cosmos that we now take for granted would also have been seen as insanity and stupidity, because there was no proof for it. The evidence was out there, but no one had the means to see it, to detect it, to analyze it. The same is true now for perhaps as much as 99% of reality, so to act like one who believes in more than what we now have the evidence to prove is an idiot is showing typical human arrogance that we have the means to know and explain everything with math and science, and nothing out there is beyond our comprehension - a falsehood that has been exposed countless times. At the same time you point to a lack of evidence as proof that there is no God, yet how can you say we even have sufficient evidence to make that claim? you fail to realize that there is so much out there beyond what can be proved or even known by science; beyond what we could ever imagine. Perhaps the answer is not to be found in organized religion, but neither will it be found in an outright rejection of everything beyond what we can prove with our minuscule human capabilities.
No one can say with certainty that there is no God.
However, given the utter lack of any logical reason why one would want to believe in something without any evidence - and there is no evidence - and the incredibly low odds of such a being existing, it makes no sense to believe in it. There are so many variables and so many possible theories that it's simply ridiculous to say you believe in God. What is God? What form does it have? Does it interact with people? How the hell is anyone supposed to come up with the answer to such questions?
The idea of a man-like God who listens to every prayer and helps people is perhaps the most ridiculous, not because it's necessarily less likely than the others, but because it is clearly a manmade invention designed to lock people up in a warm and fuzzy bubble of delusion.
People who are the most passionate about "God" are precisely those who believe in a being like that. People who believe stuff happens because "God" did something. People who believe they're being watched by "God." They're the kind of people who get pissed by what I say; an agnostic theist who believes there might be some kind of superior being would be significantly less stupid, and less likely to react like the geezer in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
You're being a bigot here man, that's demonstrably untrue. While the belief may be irrational, many religious people are otherwise rationale in all other spheres, and some are even geniuses. Pope Benedict, for instance, is obviously a believer, but also unquestionably a keen intellect who writes marvelously eloquent and beautiful essays I couldn't hope to equal. Ever debate with a Jesuit? Your point of view here is based on arrogance and is totally foolish, nothing good can come of so grossly underestimating the abilities of most of the human race and if you go on thinking like that you won't see it coming when some religious person totally outwits you in some sphere of life.
Again, I never said that a religious person cannot possess skills.
However, a truly intelligent individual is someone who consistently relies on logic and rationality. Huge gaps in these, like religion, cannot be ignored.

Quote:
The world is not so black and white as you paint it and it may make you feel all superior to think like that but it's just as much an opinion coloured by personal desire or psychological need for reality to be a certain way that it is not, and by expressing it you're showing you're no less capable of human failings.
No, the world is not black and white, but a few behaviors are almost always stupid.
The existence or not of God is completely irrelevant to my everyday life, hence my atheism is not based on any psychological need for anything, but merely rationality.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Toronto
2,801 posts, read 3,859,823 times
Reputation: 3154
I'm not having a theological argument with you here, Paparappa. But I have one response to all your claims that some higher power in the universe is unlikely - there is a reason why they call it faith.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
10,060 posts, read 12,813,278 times
Reputation: 7168
Idea for Bad Canadian Movie of the Week:

Atheistic Canadian Ubermenschen invade small Southern town and start boring its residents to death.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:17 PM
 
2,869 posts, read 5,137,950 times
Reputation: 3668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
There are hundreds of books making the case for religion, Christianity, Catholicism, etc. written by people who have spent most of their adult lives studying theology. If you aren't convinced by them, why should you expect me to convince you? I know, these people aren't intelligent. But this guy, he was intelligent!

Karl Marx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The obvious response is:

Neil deGrasse Tyson: Religion vs Science
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:35 AM
 
291 posts, read 476,570 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
I'm not having a theological argument with you here, Paparappa. But I have one response to all your claims that some higher power in the universe is unlikely - there is a reason why they call it faith.
And it's precisely faith - i.e. irrational hope - that is stupid.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,883 posts, read 38,040,463 times
Reputation: 11650
I would say that religion is mostly based on people's need to find explanations for things for which no one really has the answer. Now some people think that they (or humanity) have all the answers, but this is very obviously not true. And likely never will be.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,564 posts, read 12,822,450 times
Reputation: 9400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
That is beautiful. I could live with that.

.
Yes- you could baptize yourself every morning...very sweet bathroom...I love it.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,564 posts, read 12,822,450 times
Reputation: 9400
A lot of our old churches have been turned into condos or lofts. Many of our oldest churches are in disrepair..and yes some have been taken over by Asian Christians...I don't have a problem with that...mosques how ever are thriving...some of the grandest mosques are in and around Toronto...There is a multitude of beautiful old churches - but most are semi-abandoned. With the continued secularization of Canada you will see Christianity disappear according to plan... but other religions refuse to give up the ghost. Next door to my place is an Ethiopian Christian Orthodox church...it's doing well...very ancient rituals - people dressed in white robes...most secularists assume that they are Muslims....anyway...Christianity built Toronto - we were once called "Toronto the good"....
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
10,060 posts, read 12,813,278 times
Reputation: 7168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Christianity built Toronto - we were once called "Toronto the good"....
I read that Toronto was once known as the "Methodist Rome".
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