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The passage in question is in the Book of Revelation; not in the OT or Moses.
Remove the passage in question from scripture at your own peril; for you cannot excuse yourself by saying that Revelation 22:18-19 does not apply to the passage for that it only speaks of the book of Revelation; because the passage in question is in the book of Revelation.
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Originally Posted by Charlie24
But that can't apply to Mystic, can it? God gave him a revelation for us to know what is not true in scripture.
Just think of it, if not for Mystic we wouldn't know that over half of scripture doesn't apply to us today, that we should discard it! They were ignorant and God couldn't show them who He is, but He can show us by revelation apart from scripture.
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Originally Posted by justbyfaith
But you are missing the point; that Mystic cannot effectively do that with the Book of Revelation unless he wants his name taken out of the Book of Life.
And the Book of Revelation (in 6:12-17) clearly teaches us that the Lamb of God has wrath and justice (judgment) against sin!
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Originally Posted by Charlie24
But Mystic says there is no wrath of God and he had that revelation straight from God!
See, the scripture says there is wrath but Mystic says no, and he has been given the truth!
Aren't you happy to know we have Mystic around to correct us from all that scripture stuff?
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Originally Posted by justbyfaith
Obviously Mystic is exalting himself above the holy scriptures as being the divine authority.
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Originally Posted by Charlie24
I think you may have something there! Kinda makes one wonder doesn't it?
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Originally Posted by justbyfaith
I really do fear for him.
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Originally Posted by Charlie24
If you believe the scripture there is reason to fear for him!
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The writers of Revelation were believers in a wrathful God and could imagine no other kind of God despite the clear evidence of Jesus Christ himself!!! All reinterpretations of scripture you rely on were interpreted using a wrathful God, NOT the God of Jesus Christ!!!
The problem here stems from both parties simply do not understand what the scriptures are talking about when they talk about the wrath of God. Mystic sees the wrath of God in scripture much the same way you two do, thus rejects the wrath of God. Both parties here actually need to do a study on the wrath of God because you all are way off base.
The problem here stems from both parties simply do not understand what the scriptures are talking about when they talk about the wrath of God. Mystic sees the wrath of God in scripture much the same way you two do, thus rejects the wrath of God. Both parties here actually need to do a study on the wrath of God because you all are way off base.
Well show us in scripture, where we are "off base." Not looking for your opinion, pneuma, we like to see scripture on any claim.
Yet you do not believe the lamb of God takes away the sin of the world as you believe sin is eternal.
So why do you quote scripture you do not believe in?
I believe that we need to take the whole of scripture to form our doctrine; and in the whole of scripture we have the concept of everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46). Now, why would people be punished eternally if their sin has been eradicated?
Therefore, when it says that Jesus takes away the sin of the world, it must be speaking of the fact that His sacrifice on the Cross would avail for everyone if everyone availed themselves of it.
It should be clear that access into grace is by faith (Romans 5:1-2) and that therefore if someone does not have faith in Jesus Christ, they are not recipients of grace and therefore are not saved; since salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).
Now, what of those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost? They have never forgiveness.
So, there is at least a specific group of people who will never be forgiven and what then is their fate? Will they rejoice in heaven for all of eternity? I don't think so.
I believe that their fate will be what is spoken of in Matthew 25:46 as defined by Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50.
And here is a thought. Jesus, the Lamb of God, does take away the sin of the world in that those who keep their sin will be cast far away from God and those in heaven in that they will be cast into outer darkness....thus sin will be taken away from them...not that it will be no more; but that it will be taken far away from those who dwell in heaven.
And those who want to keep their sin will be allowed to do so; and will be cast away with their sin into outer darkness; where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I believe that we need to take the whole of scripture to form our doctrine; and in the whole of scripture we have the concept of everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46). Now, why would people be punished eternally if their sin has been eradicated?
Your reliance on the translation of man is your downfall here JBF, we have tried to show you many times that aion and its adjective aionios do not mean eternal, they speak of an unknown duration, whether long or short only God knows.
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Therefore, when it says that Jesus takes away the sin of the world, it must be speaking of the fact that His sacrifice on the Cross would avail for everyone if everyone availed themselves of it.
Nonsense, you are rejecting the clear testimony of scripture for your doctrine. Can you not see how you changed the scripture to suite your doctrinal belief?
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It should be clear that access into grace is by faith (Romans 5:1-2) and that therefore if someone does not have faith in Jesus Christ, they are not recipients of grace and therefore are not saved; since salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).
How many time must we point out that scripture tells us the every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER?
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Now, what of those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost? They have never forgiveness.
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So, there is at least a specific group of people who will never be forgiven and what then is their fate? Will they rejoice in heaven for all of eternity? I don't think so.
You need to look up the word NEVER in the Greek to understand what that scripture is saying.
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I believe that their fate will be what is spoken of in Matthew 25:46 as defined by Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50.
and you only believe in eternal torment because of your reliance on the translation of men. scripture actually tells us that the aion/aionios have a beginning and an end, yet you reject those scriptures in favor of your doctrine. Do you not believe that scripture defines itself? if so why do you believe aion and its adjective are eternal when scripture actually tell us they are not?
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And here is a thought. Jesus, the Lamb of God, does take away the sin of the world in that those who keep their sin will be cast far away from God and those in heaven in that they will be cast into outer darkness....thus sin will be taken away from them...not that it will be no more; but that it will be taken far away from those who dwell in heaven.
Nonsense, you take away Gods omnipresence by your doctrine.
Well actually you did say in one post that God will be present in the lake of fire, thus he too will be in torment eternally.
And you misunderstand the scriptures here anyway as the torment is not away from the presence of God but is in the presence of the lamb. Which would mean Jesus is also in the lake of fire being tormented eternally.
However you did unknowingly stumble onto a truth, for God is a consuming fire and all the old man nature will be consumed by his very presence.
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And those who want to keep their sin will be allowed to do so; and will be cast away with their sin into outer darkness; where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Again the torment is IN the presence of the lamb. When Jesus showed up the devils cried out did you come to torment us before the time?
It is the presence of the lamb in ones life that torments our old man nature, because as Christ is being formed in us the old man cry's out in anguish as it is perishing.
Jesus is God in the Flesh and He unambiguously demonstrated the there is NO WRATH or vengeance in Him = nonexistent wrath in God! So, why on earth do you think it is remotely rational or reasonable to believe that appeasing God's nonexistent wrath by some convoluted and barbaric "scapegoat" process using God Himself to enable God Himself to forgive us for "whatever" God Himself actually wants to forgive us for????? Please explain this to me.
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Originally Posted by justbyfaith
First answer me this question.
Is it your contention that anything in the Book of Revelation is not the inspired word of the Lord?
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Originally Posted by justbyfaith
***
Rather impatient aren't you, JBF? See my answer here
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