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Whoops! You've let slip a rather subversive secret. I say "subversive" because it normally isn't spoken or even admitted to one's self. It is something rooted deeply in human psycholgy that manifests just about everywhere in culture, including religion.
You're in good company. St. Augustine let the secret slip when he said that the saints in heaven would look out over the ramparts and enjoy the righteous suffering of the damned.
The secret to feeling one's self to be good is to point to somebody else who isn't and say, "See? I'm not like THAT." It is the basis for much shadenfreude and sadism.
The challenge is to openly admit the secret (as you have done, congrats) and then to overcome it with the realization that you don't need someone to suffer in order to be happy. You don't need to identify a group of bad guys in order to feel like a good guy. You don't need the damned in order to be a saint.
Why is this a subversive secret? Because so much of our self-worth depends upon the de-valuing of others . It's wired into our neurology. Rewiring is extraordinarily difficult and sometimes painful.
Great post. It's a us vs. them mentality they have instead of accepting the fact we are all in this thing together and when one suffers, we all suffer.
The world has already been saved in an incomplete sense. Christ came and died on the cross, thereby saving the world. It's been accomplished.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
Where in the world do you find that understanding in scripture. it like saying Jesus Christ is the incomplete saviour of the world.
Let me qualify that. By "incomplete" I just meant that time has not yet been completed. i.e. There are in all likelihood people yet to be born who will end up in heaven. In that sense, salvation is not yet completed.
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
who is it that does the works of the flesh if it is not the old man nature?
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Certainly; but the fewness of those who find it is not because it's some Kabbalistic secret. It's because salvation is suffering. It's hard to give up the things we love. It's hard to make sacrifices. It's hard to die to ourselves.
it is not some kabbalistic secret mike and again if you would turn what you just said to your soul life you would begin to understand what I am saying. It is hard on our soul life, but the spirit rejoices as the soul life is being destroyed.
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I grant that there are many ways to interpret the writings of Paul. His writings can be used to make convincing arguments for all kinds of ideas. That's the very reason why we need an interpreter.
that interpreter is not any man mike it is the Holy Spirit.
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Acts 8:30-31 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?†Philip asked. “How can I,†he said, “unless someone explains it to me?†So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Philip, an Apostle, left successors who alone have been given the authority by Christ to rightly interpret Scripture.
nonsense, Jesus said the comforter would lead us into all truth.
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I don't deny that. But I have to offer a disclaimer that I don't concede to what I suspect is your rather gnostic understanding of the concept of "flesh vs spirit".
I really do not know what gnostics believe, I only know what I believe.
People ask the question all the time, How could a loving God send anyone to hell?
The reality is that God has done everything in His power to keep people out of hell.
Anyone who goes to hell must first trample over the Cross.
Every person is given the opportunity to avail themselves of the Cross.
The Cross is the remedy for the nature of sin that dwells within all of humankind.
If that nature of sin is never dealt with, it should be clear that the person who has never availed himself of the Cross will continue to commit sin throughout eternity.
Things like murder and theft will be committed by all those who never avail themselves of the Cross in order to deal with the nature of sin within them.
Now, I believe that all of creation cries out for a separation to occur between all that is good and all that is evil.
Most believe that they are good; and they also desire that the day would come when they might not have to deal any more with the repercussions of evil.
But most who believe that they are good, have evil within them.
This must be dealt with at the Cross before it is too late.
Heb 9:27, And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Jhn 8:21, Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jhn 8:22, Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jhn 8:23, And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Says somebody proud to be in hell lol. Hell is the outer court of Gentiles where you choose to stand. You quoted Hebrews, let me quote Hebrews also, I mean if it's all true.
Hebrews 8
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
If Hebrews can be used as an authority, then why arent you in the new covenant?
Why do you even quote things written to Ephraim and Judah?
Those first Gentiles became Ephraim on their way to becoming Judah.
No, God did not fail to bring into His kingdom as many as would choose to receive Him as Lord and Saviour.
Love did not fail to give every man a choice in this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey
Whoops! You've let slip a rather subversive secret. I say "subversive" because it normally isn't spoken or even admitted to one's self. It is something rooted deeply in human psycholgy that manifests just about everywhere in culture, including religion.
You're in good company. St. Augustine let the secret slip when he said that the saints in heaven would look out over the ramparts and enjoy the righteous suffering of the damned.
The secret to feeling one's self to be good is to point to somebody else who isn't and say, "See? I'm not like THAT." It is the basis for much shadenfreude and sadism.
The challenge is to openly admit the secret (as you have done, congrats) and then to overcome it with the realization that you don't need someone to suffer in order to be happy. You don't need to identify a group of bad guys in order to feel like a good guy. You don't need the damned in order to be a saint.
Why is this a subversive secret? Because so much of our self-worth depends upon the de-valuing of others . It's wired into our neurology. Rewiring is extraordinarily difficult and sometimes painful.
And of course you took my statement out of context.
It was meant to say that in order for heaven to truly be heavenly, there can be no sin there.
Therefore sin must be separated from all that is good in order for heaven to truly be heavenly.
If sin is not in heaven, where can it reside?
It will reside in the hearts of all those who would not be separated from their sin through the God-ordained remedy, the Cross.
Those who have not had their sin dealt with will not be allowed into heaven; otherwise sin would be in heaven; and sin is the reason for death, sorrow, crying, and pain: which, of course, cannot reside in heaven (Revelation 21:4); and therefore sin cannot reside there, either.
Let me qualify that. By "incomplete" I just meant that time has not yet been completed. i.e. There are in all likelihood people yet to be born who will end up in heaven. In that sense, salvation is not yet completed.
it still leaves unsaved billions of people mike and there is no way you can say Jesus is the saviour of the world and leave out billions of people.
Did you not know where sin abounds grace abounds even more? Our job is to spread the good news about Christ, it is the Holy Spirit's job to convict the world of it's sin. He doesn't need your help on this, the devil is doing just fine in that department.
Well spoken.
When I returned to Christianity, I did so hesitantly at first, owing to a mountain of unresolved theological conundra. But then God (I believe it was God) told me to disregard all of that for the moment, and to focus singemindedly on the central issue of the faith, which is grace.
Being minsters of grace is our primary mission. When the crowing and the bleating about peripheral issues of dogma drowns out the good news about grace, how the devils must smile.
it still leaves unsaved billions of people mike and there is no way you can say Jesus is the saviour of the world and leave out billions of people.
Why not?
Jesus is the Savior of the world
and
hell is real and people really go there.
I just said it.
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Great post. It's a us vs. them mentality they have instead of accepting the fact we are all in this thing together and when one suffers, we all suffer.
