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We're so close then....and my answer to your question is nobody in their right mind would ever, EVER reject the opportunity to fellowship in Heaven. Who kicks and screams? Think of 2 doors presented to a rational mind...door number 1=eternal bliss and happiness. Door number 2= sadness and suffering. So your saying some people would pick door number 2? Really? Because they hate God sooo much? Laughable.
You're assuming that choosing Door #1 costs nothing.
What if entering through Door #1 required something you weren't willing to give?
Mike we do not have a freewill choice of life or death until AFTER we have been regenerated, we were SLAVES to sin and death, but once regenerated and the regeneration is ALL of God we are given the freewill choice of life or death.
Calvinist nonsense.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
I agree, however that seem like lip service to me because the salvation of the world can never happen if people are eternally torment.
Of course it can. The world has already been saved in an incomplete sense. Christ came and died on the cross, thereby saving the world. It's been accomplished.
Literally every human soul spending eternity in heaven is not necessary in order for the world to have been saved.
Does the fact that 1/3 of the angels including Lucifer fell indicate a failure on the part of God?
It seems like your unique interpretation of Paul, as it's not an interpretation I've ever heard before in either Catholic or Protestant theology; at least certainly not in mainstream circles.
that does not make it wrong mike, few find the strait gate, the majority don't. the scribe and the pharisees were many, Jesus and the disciples were few, was it the many or the few that got it right?
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Read 1co.15 which is a great chapter showing forth the difference between the man that we are and the man that we shall become.
There is a spiritual war going on mike and that war is being fought within each of us, the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit wars against the flesh.
Just because people are in hell, why does that mean that Jesus failed to save the world? I don't see how that follows.
What Jesus did is provide opportunity. It's our responsibility to take advantage of the opportunity.
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No scripture anywhere mike says Jesus is a potential savoiur of the world, they say He IS the saviour of the world.
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He's not going to violate our free will or drag us into His presence
and if I be lifted up I will drag all men unto me. this dragging is the regeneration because only those who have been regenerated have the freedom to make a choice between life and death.
No scripture anywhere mike says Jesus is a potential savoiur of the world, they say He IS the saviour of the world.
and if I be lifted up I will drag all men unto me. this dragging is the regeneration because only those who have been regenerated have the freedom to make a choice between life and death.
read post 228 and tell me where the choice is given to the dead whether they can live or not.
only the illogical would think using logic is wrong. However you being a Calvinist simply do not believe God sent Jesus to save the world, which is illogical also if the scriptures are to be believed.
Hell must be truly like hell so that heaven can truly be heavenly.
Whoops! You've let slip a rather subversive secret. I say "subversive" because it normally isn't spoken or even admitted to one's self. It is something rooted deeply in human psycholgy that manifests just about everywhere in culture, including religion.
You're in good company. St. Augustine let the secret slip when he said that the saints in heaven would look out over the ramparts and enjoy the righteous suffering of the damned.
The secret to feeling one's self to be good is to point to somebody else who isn't and say, "See? I'm not like THAT." It is the basis for much shadenfreude and sadism.
The challenge is to openly admit the secret (as you have done, congrats) and then to overcome it with the realization that you don't need someone to suffer in order to be happy. You don't need to identify a group of bad guys in order to feel like a good guy. You don't need the damned in order to be a saint.
Why is this a subversive secret? Because so much of our self-worth depends upon the de-valuing of others . It's wired into our neurology. Rewiring is extraordinarily difficult and sometimes painful.
the other mike kept saying that also but from my understanding one of your own (Augustine) also believed it and so did Luther so it is obviously not a Calvinistic belief even though Calvinist believe this truth, at least they have something correct.
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Of course it can. The world has already been saved in an incomplete sense. Christ came and died on the cross, thereby saving the world. It's been accomplished.
Literally every human soul spending eternity in heaven is not necessary in order for the world to have been saved.
Does the fact that 1/3 of the angels including Lucifer fell indicate a failure on the part of God?
Where in the world do you find that understanding in scripture. it like saying Jesus Christ is the incomplete saviour of the world.
It seems like your unique interpretation of Paul, as it's not an interpretation I've ever heard before in either Catholic or Protestant theology; at least certainly not in mainstream circles.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
that does not make it wrong mike,
Maybe not. But it certainly makes it extremely suspect.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
few find the strait gate, the majority don't. the scribe and the pharisees were many, Jesus and the disciples were few, was it the many or the few that got it right?
Certainly; but the fewness of those who find it is not because it's some Kabbalistic secret. It's because salvation is suffering. It's hard to give up the things we love. It's hard to make sacrifices. It's hard to die to ourselves.
I grant that there are many ways to interpret the writings of Paul. His writings can be used to make convincing arguments for all kinds of ideas. That's the very reason why we need an interpreter.
Acts 8:30-31 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Philip, an Apostle, left successors who alone have been given the authority by Christ to rightly interpret Scripture.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
There is a spiritual war going on mike and that war is being fought within each of us, the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit wars against the flesh.
I don't deny that. But I have to offer a disclaimer that I don't concede to what I suspect is your rather gnostic understanding of the concept of "flesh vs spirit".
Whoops! You've let slip a rather subversive secret. I say "subversive" because it normally isn't spoken or even admitted to one's self. It is something rooted deeply in human psycholgy that manifests just about everywhere in culture, including religion.
You're in good company. St. Augustine let the secret slip when he said that the saints in heaven would look out over the ramparts and enjoy the righteous suffering of the damned.
The secret to feeling one's self to be good is to point to somebody else who isn't and say, "See? I'm not like THAT." It is the basis for much shadenfreude and sadism.
The challenge is to openly admit the secret (as you have done, congrats) and then to overcome it with the realization that you don't need someone to suffer in order to be happy. You don't need to identify a group of bad guys in order to feel like a good guy. You don't need the damned in order to be a saint.
Why is this a subversive secret? Because so much of our self-worth depends upon the de-valuing of others . It's wired into our neurology. Rewiring is extraordinarily difficult and sometimes painful.
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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