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Turkey and Israel are trying to mediate peace talks for some time. If Zelenski agrees to give up Crimea at least (which he should) then it's over. The far east should held referendum.
I've seen the Turkey proposals, a few days ago that sounded hopeful. Then also later a reference that Putin subsequently said no to a Zelensky initiative to talk, saying he was not yet ready??? Feeling somewhat hopeless about this, not following that side closely.
Turkey and Israel are trying to mediate peace talks for some time. If Zelenski agrees to give up Crimea at least (which he should) then it's over. The far east should held referendum.
Thinking about a referendum, that's a theory. Wonder how that would work. One reason the world did not accept Crimea was due to the widespread reports of illegalities in the referendum. Donbass has been engaged in a civil war for 8 years. Many residents had fled, some to the west with other perhaps into Russia. And that was before the invasion. So, how? A practicality - one that should not stay in the way of a peaceful end.
Still that's the type of question that holds up agreements.
Thinking about a referendum, that's a theory. Wonder how that would work. One reason the world did not accept Crimea was due to the widespread reports of illegalities in the referendum..
In 2009 UN decided "out of curiosity" maybe to conduct a referendum in Crimea and the result was that 70% want independence and remember that was UN - an America-headquartered organization. A polling by Russia obviously found a much higher percentage yet both fall within the domain of 'democracy'. Assuming both were biased than in-the-middle % will be about 80% or so which is significant.
Frankly I don't know that much about Donetsk/Donbas just like I don't know much about Corsica, France and their claims for independence, so I'll shut up...
In 2009 UN decided "out of curiosity" maybe to conduct a referendum in Crimea and the result was that 70% want independence and remember that was UN - an America-headquartered organization. A polling by Russia obviously found a much higher percentage yet both fall within the domain of 'democracy'. Assuming both were biased than in-the-middle % will be about 80% or so which is significant.
Frankly I don't know that much about Donetsk/Donbas just like I don't know much about Corsica, France and their claims for independence, so I'll shut up...
Quote:
Swiss newspaper Tages-Anzeiger reported that voters were able to vote as many times as they wanted.[28] Internal Affairs ministry officials branded the vote a farce, and said that just over 32 percent of registered voters in Donetsk Oblast participated in the vote.
The USA (and Americans) learned. Putin (and Russians) did not.
Note also the nuclear factor. The wrong justification for the Iraq war was WMDs. Putin actually has WMDs. They tend to be very destabilizing if waved around, existing or not.
What Putin has done is to restart the Cold War and a nuclear arms race. We stupid Americans didn't realize his feelings were getting hurt to where he'd already reentered it.
Another American mistake. Putin really need to be a world partner. But did he have to invade Ukraine to prove the point?
And if you truly think this is about his concern for the Donbass, well I don't know what to say. Looked at all THREE versions of the constitutional provisions concerning language status. Before, during, and after Yanukovych. Think it's such a red herring, other than a to inflame Donbass and prepare the Russian public for war.
You know, of course, that some substantial number - if not most ???? - neo-Nazi militias are also Russian speaking.
What are you talking about?
President Bush bombed Iraq infrastructure on 1991 and the results were a half million children died.
Quote:
We found suffering of tragic proportions. As is so often the case, the youngest and most vulnerable are paying the price for the actions of others. Children are dying of preventable diseases and starvation as a direct result of the Gulf crisis. The current conditions in Iraq reflect the cumulative effect of the military actions taken by Iraq, United Nations sanctions, allied bombing, civilian uprisings, and the subsequent suppression of these uprisings by the Iraqi government. Although it is difficult to measure the effect of each of these elements, the predominant factor contributing to epidemic waterborne diseases was clearly the destruction of the electrical infrastructure.
Although the allied bombing may have caused relatively little direct damage to the civilian population, the destruction of the infrastructure has resulted in devastating long-term consequences for health. We normally consider civilian casualties to be only those that are a direct result of injury during war, but this definition deserves revision. With the changes in military technology and the strategy of warfare, including the capacity to target precisely and destroy a country's infrastructure, there may be many more indirect than direct injuries and deaths.
The economic sanctions on Iraq are also taking their toll. Although the sanctions were intended to permit the importation of goods essential for civilian survival, these goods (food, medicine, and parts to repair the infrastructure) are not reaching those in need. Whether the bottleneck is legal, logistical, political, or economic, it is effectively inhibiting access to required goods.
George W. Bush KNEW there were no WMD. "The wrong justification for the Iraq war was WMDs," doesn't begin to negate the death of some many people.
Quote:
There have been between 184,382 and 207,156 Iraqi civilians killed by direct violence since the U.S. invasion. The actual number of civilians killed by direct and indirect war violence is unknown but likely much higher. Life-threatening damage to Iraqi health care and other infrastructure has not been repaired: civilians are still dying in significant numbers.
So is it okay when USA kills children while invaded countries who done us no harm? Should we all turn a blind eye to anything the USA does while shouting at Russia? BTW, what has the USA learned? It went into Afghanistan and Libya afterwards with the same disastrous results. So much for learning!
In fact, USA arms dealers have sold WMD to many countries. Countries with WMD include the USA, China, India, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc. The arms race never ended. The USA military industrial complex never stopped working.
This has nothing to do with Russia's role in the world. Russia went into Ukraine because of the ethnic violence on Russia's border. Bombs being tossed around borders usually upset countries. What if Mexico tossed bombs on the Southern USA border? You don't think the USA would react?
It's a big world out there. The USA and NATO are only a part of it. China, India, some middle eastern countries are Russian partners.
USA adventures in Ukraine since 2014 caused the newest Cold War.
This argument has been debunked numerous times already. Time to put this one out to pasture.
There *are* definitely people who identify with Moscow in eastern Ukraine and Crimea - that's because many of the residents there *are* Russian, Russia has been settling people there for many years. However, it's difficult to easily know what the feelings of the majority are. Russia holds these referendums in areas of Ukraine that they want to annex. When you consider that Russia has a president for life in Vladimir Putin, who jails or kills any political opponents with any chance even at home, it's not like you can take anything at face value when the Kremlin is involved in politics and has a clear desired outcome in another country.
Does Putin allow free and fair elections? Ask Viktor Yushenko, the Ukrainian politician that Putin poisoned because he wasn't pro-Putin and was running in Ukraine. Or ask Alexei Navalny, the Russian politician that Putin poisoned because he was going to run against him and had support from the people. Or ask Boris Nemtsov, the Russian politician that Putin had shot because he was going to run against him and had support from the people
Last edited by OutdoorLover; 03-20-2022 at 05:11 PM..
So is it okay when USA kills children while invaded countries who done us no harm? Should we all turn a blind eye to anything the USA does while shouting at Russia? All war is terrible.
In fact, USA arms dealers have sold WMD to many countries. Countries with WMD include the USA, China, India, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc. The arms race never ended. The USA military industrial complex never stopped working.
This has nothing to do with Russia's role in the world. Russia went into Ukraine because of the ethnic violence on Russia's border. Bombs being tossed around borders usually upset countries. What if Mexico tossed bombs on the Southern USA border? You don't think the USA would react?
It's a big world out there. The USA and NATO are only a part of it. China, India, some middle eastern countries are Russian partners.
USA adventures in Ukraine since 2014 caused the newest Cold War.
How is this working in your mind? It's ok for Putin to invade a sovereign country, bomb their cities to dust, kill scores of civilians, cause millions of people to flee their homes and create a tidal wave of refugees, set up filtration camps to enslave fleeing civilians, Russian soldiers gang raping women and children, looting homes and businesses (even ATM machines), because Iraq/George Bush?
This is very twisted rationalization of what the world sees for what it is - war crimes, committed by war criminals. Like Serbia 2.0. The Hague will be ready to prosecute this set of criminals too, make no mistake.
So is it okay when USA kills children while invaded countries who done us no harm? Should we all turn a blind eye to anything the USA does while shouting at Russia? BTW, what has the USA learned? It went into Afghanistan and Libya afterwards with the same disastrous results. So much for learning!
In fact, USA arms dealers have sold WMD to many countries. Countries with WMD include the USA, China, India, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc. The arms race never ended. The USA military industrial complex never stopped working.
This has nothing to do with Russia's role in the world. Russia went into Ukraine because of the ethnic violence on Russia's border. Bombs being tossed around borders usually upset countries. What if Mexico tossed bombs on the Southern USA border? You don't think the USA would react?
It's a big world out there. The USA and NATO are only a part of it. China, India, some middle eastern countries are Russian partners.
USA adventures in Ukraine since 2014 caused the newest Cold War.
You asked: "What's the difference between the USA invasion of Iraq and the Russian invasion of Ukraine?"
The point was Americans learned at a cost both to other peoples and to the country that invasions destabilize spreading into the population while Putin even with that example and seeing for himself the results in Syria did not. From THAT you think I need a lesson on child-killing?
The reference to the WMDs was to point out how the fear of WMDs that include nuclear 'button-push' nations into taking horrendous and wrongful steps. Focus on THAT, not a segue into what Bush knew and did not. Putin is also now nuclear button-pushing as he sends various signals.
EDITED TO ADD: Analysts point out that kind of button-pushing brings us closer to an unintentional nuclear confrontation. Computers make mistakes. At least twice, nuclear launches were halted when communications were down and courageous initiators refused to take that last step. Both were Russian, incidentally. Heightened world tensions can led to tragic error. What is bad today can get worse.
Last edited by EveryLady; 03-20-2022 at 05:37 PM..
There *are* definitely people who identify with Moscow in eastern Ukraine and Crimea - that's because many of the residents there *are* Russian, Russia has been settling people there for many years. However, it's difficult to easily know what the feelings of the majority are. Russia holds these referendums in areas of Ukraine that they want to annex. When you consider that Russia has a president for life in Vladimir Putin, who jails or kills any political opponents with any chance even at home, it's not like you can take anything at face value when the Kremlin is involved in politics and has a clear desired outcome in another country.
Does Putin allow free and fair elections? Ask Viktor Yushenko, the Ukrainian politician that Putin poisoned because he wasn't pro-Putin and was running in Ukraine. Or ask Alexei Navalny, the Russian politician that Putin poisoned because he was going to run against him and had support from the people. Or ask Boris Nemtsov, the Russian politician that Putin had shot because he was going to run against him and had support from the people
"...for many years" starting when? After they took over in 2014? Have they been adding Russians to the population, diluting the Ukrainian percentage? Population transfers of that nature are agains international law. It's considered a form of genocide or ethnocide. Not that that would stop Russia from using that tactic. They've been doing it in one or more of their ethnic republics, deliberately to dilute the vote, since sometime in the late 1990's or so.
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What are you talking about? 
