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Re: "If Kiev served all the people of Ukraine in the first-place there would be little need to fight"
Cough cough I'm kind of gagging there! Perhaps with a more stable government Kiev could naturally work things out if given the chance.
It WAS given a chance. Yet the way Kiev used this chance - it started with announcing the East of the country as "undesirables" and banning Russian language. So obviously Kiev didn't have any intention to serve all the people of Ukraine equally, irrespectively from any "Putin." So DPolo is right. Stupidity is punishable ( I'm talking about Kiev.)
Russian intelligence services have for decades maintained a firm foothold in Ukraine—a presence with roots in Soviet history when the Ukrainian security apparatus was simply the local branch of the KGB. Russian operatives, most commonly working for the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB), the KGB’s successor, permeate Ukrainian police and intelligence agencies. Russia sympathizers and agents, many of whom belong to the GRU, Russia's resurgent military intelligence agency, fill the Ukrainian army ranks. Equipped with an array of tools—from embedded spies to communications intercepts—the GRU is tasked with locating Ukrainian military units, uncovering their plans, and conducting paramilitary operations against them. The Russian Foreign Intelligence Service and Ministry of Internal Affairs, likewise, have also built extensive networks in the country. In particular, the Ministry of Internal Affairs’ long-standing relationship with its local counterpart, the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, has allowed the agency to easily identify Ukrainian counterparts amenable to FSB recruitment
I am sorry, let's just pretend we are reasonable people. For a second, ok ?
I am talking to person who does not live in Russia and this person is telling me that pretty much everything that is wrong with his country and his life is Putin's fault. Russians are evil nazies and the country the he is advocating can do no wrong. The former president of his country was a Russian spy, so were lot's of the MPs they kicked out... This person has long scripts of "proof" only no one really have the patience to read it all.
Now, this person to me seems like he is having issues with mental health. Only I understand that this person is probably brainwashed. Talking to this person online is not dangerous, but when you get a bunch of people like that and give em some power, then situation becomes dangerous.
Ukraine, the schizophrenic Russian neighbor
But what Russians on this forum saying seems to be true. Your way of thinking is financed by either USAID or EUAID. Some-one paid good money, to get you this Russophobic.
If we think to the teaching of Sherlock Holmes, knowing all the parties involved and basic facts we can ask our-self what has probably happened ?
We know that Crimea was a Russian Military Port since 17th sentury, under agreement with Ukraine Russians maintained 30k troops in Crimea. During Maidan Russians were told that Ukraine will no longer lease them this Port. People of Crimea were scared of Maidan coming to their door steps. So Russians take Crimea back from Ukraine. The people there don't mind the well policed streets to the mess Ukraine is in. At a time like this I would imagine that in Crimea announcing unpopular opinions about current events has some repercussions.
Popular opinion at the time presiding Maidan. Russians think Ukrainians are their brothers, Ukraine is divided, West Ukraine is very Russophobic, East Ukraine think they are Russians them-self. East-Ukraine understand that they are citizens of Ukraine and they are patriots of their land, but the thought of Ukrainian and Russian being a different people never occurs to them.
What is happening in Russia pre-Maidan. EU has trade relations with Russia, they understand that pulling Russia into a democracy will involve trade and relations. Russia is slowly learning from Europe. Every-one is hopeful that Russia some day becomes a true democracy. We do understand the wast power of Russian nuclear arsenal, so we do not want the mess that Ukraine is in to happen in Russia.
What is happening after Maidan, Russians are saying that democracy sucks, while Putin has over 80% approval rating. He seems to eliminate his political opposition by throwing them in jail.
I am just saying that till very recently at least westerners and people outside eastern europe considered just Russia as "something important" and all other countries were considered "pro-russian". The image of bulgarians abroad is as "russian speaking pro-putin communists" - I've lived many years abroad (in dubai - where most people are arabs, indians, english etc. so I got that...).
it has been only 20 years? since the fall of communism, the old perceptions do not disappear overnight.
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However when the Ukrainians showed that they aren't pro-putin, then the westerners still cannot understand how a country like that can be independent...
In reality it can't be independent. Because it was never independent. It'd just simply trying to get a new master, so their perception is correct.
What is happening in Russia pre-Maidan. EU has trade relations with Russia, they understand that pulling Russia into a democracy will involve trade and relations.
I think that EU is in very difficult situation when it comes to Russia. Since it were mostly the US that were "wheeling and dealing" in Kremlin in Yeltsin's times, and the consequences of it were rather disastrous on many accounts, the EU has to deal now with these consequences, since no one cancelled history and geography all together, and Russia IS an inseparable part of Europe, whether one likes it or not.
I don't think that Europeans have any illusions by now that Russia is not constituting any democracy in European understanding of it, and it's not going to in foreseeable future. So the only choice they have is to severe all the ties ( which they couldn't manage to do even in Soviet times,) or to accept the situation. The more perceptive ones do understand what it's all about, and why Russia is currently set this way, particularly in light of latest events in Ukraine.
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Russia is slowly learning from Europe.
It doesn't. You can't "learn from Europe," when your political/economic system is set not in Socialist way, as it's a case in Europe, but when it's set in Oligarchic/Cut throat crony capitalist way.
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What is happening after Maidan, Russians are saying that democracy sucks, while Putin has over 80% approval rating.
Because Russians have got very bad taste of "democracy." What they have got under the guise of "democracy" and "liberalism" was thuggery on a grand scale and criminal lawlessness. No surprise they don't want to hear any longer either of "liberalism" or "democracy."
I think that EU is in very difficult situation when it comes to Russia. Since it were mostly the US that were "wheeling and dealing" in Kremlin in Yeltsin's times, and the consequences of it were rather disastrous on many accounts, the EU has to deal now with these consequences, since no one cancelled history and geography all together, and Russia IS an inseparable part of Europe, whether one likes it or not.
I don't think that Europeans have any illusions by now that Russia is not constituting any democracy in European understanding of it, and it's not going to in foreseeable future. So the only choice they have is to severe all the ties ( which they couldn't manage to do even in Soviet times,) or to accept the situation. The more perceptive ones do understand what it's all about, and why Russia is currently set this way, particularly in light of latest events in Ukraine.
It doesn't. You can't "learn from Europe," when your political/economic system is set not in Socialist way, as it's a case in Europe, but when it's set in Oligarchic/Cut throat crony capitalist way.
Because Russians have got very bad taste of "democracy." What they have got under the guise of "democracy" and "liberalism" was thuggery on a grand scale and criminal lawlessness. No surprise they don't want to hear any longer either of "liberalism" or "democracy."
When Russians are Traveling to Europe and having access to EU technology and culture they migth learn something. Well traveled and well educated Russians were the growing middle class up, up to recently...
I am looking at Russian GDP, it's sources and general experience with Russians, I don't recognize a Cut throat crony capitalist way at all. There are other countries with billionaires having to much power, but that does not hinder the country's economic growth. I mean after the fall of communism, you have to expect some wild wild west, but they will sort it out with time.
I think EU told the truth, the moment Ukraine conflict is over, they will remove the economic sanctions from Russia. US will not warm up to Russia during current presidency and what happens after is any-one's guess.
It's the future of Ukraine that is unclear. I mean what is going to happen to Ukraine in 2-3 years time?
They will still be talking about joining EU, Ukrainian Oligarchs will still be fighting for power? Maybe Putin will find a way to appoint some-one for them. I mean what?
When Russians are Traveling to Europe and having access to EU technology and culture they migth learn something. Well traveled and well educated Russians were the growing middle class up, up to recently...
This is something on "Russia's growing middle class."
I am looking at Russian GDP, it's sources and general experience with Russians, I don't recognize a Cut throat crony capitalist way at all.
You wouldn't be able to "recognize" anything, while "looking at Russian GDP." You need to live there, particularly as Russian citizen.
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There are other countries with billionaires having to much power, but that does not hinder the country's economic growth. I mean after the fall of communism, you have to expect some wild wild west, but they will sort it out with time.
Once the train is put on wrong kind of rails - that's the way it keeps on rolling. Putin's crony capitalism - that's the way Russia "sorted out" the "wild wild west" of the nineties.
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I think EU told the truth, the moment Ukraine conflict is over, they will remove the economic sanctions from Russia. US will not warm up to Russia during current presidency and what happens after is any-one's guess.
I don't think that "current presidency" is a culprit here. There is not much Obama can do under the circumstances. There are plenty of people from "big business" that are breathing in his neck, and who set their eyes on Ukraine already.
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It's the future of Ukraine that is unclear. I mean what is going to happen to Ukraine in 2-3 years time?
I am sorry, let's just pretend we are reasonable people. For a second, ok ?
I can't pretend that your cheap rhetoric tricks have anything to do with an attempt to reason. Same true about most of the Russian comrades in this thread, you avoid reason and honest discussion, you just propagandize, which kinda perplexing considering a low traffic thread like this one, one can't teach an old dog new tricks, I guess.
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I am talking to person who does not live in Russia and this person is telling me that pretty much everything that is wrong with his country and his life is Putin's fault. Russians are evil nazies and the country the he is advocating can do no wrong. The former president of his country was a Russian spy, so were lot's of the MPs they kicked out... This person has long scripts of "proof" only no one really have the patience to read it all.
This is a cheap straw-man argument. You make up stuff, you argue with the stuff you've just made up, you come up with pre manufactured "conclusions" while avoiding addressing a single specific point I've actually made.
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Now, this person to me seems like he is having issues with mental health. Only I understand that this person is probably brainwashed. Talking to this person online is not dangerous, but when you get a bunch of people like that and give em some power, then situation becomes dangerous.
A cheap straw-man argument followed by getting personal while avoiding addressing specific points. Can Russian comrades come up with something new? You all learn from the same text book, you all "argue" in the same way. Speaking of brainwashing. Watching Russian TV does that to people.
But what Russians on this forum saying seems to be true. Your way of thinking is financed by either USAID or EUAID. Some-one paid good money, to get you this Russophobic.
It's a normal human reaction to dislike oppressive, corrupt&criminal, post soviet feudalism. As though it's not enough to get one sick to his stomach, Russia enriched the post soviet scene with paranoia, manias, rabid Nazism, saber rattling, etc.. Russophobic, I don't think so, Russodisgust is a more precise term.
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We know that Crimea was a Russian Military Port since 17th sentury,
We, the people, don't know that. Russian Empire acquired Crimea at the end of 18th century as a result of series of wars Ukrainians were a major part of. Russian "Federation" is not a legal heir of the Russian Empire, neither Russian Empire legacy can be privatized by the ethnic Russian nazis, if you are talking "historical justice" Adolf style. Russian Federation recognized territorial integrity of Ukraine unconditionally, a series of the international treaties, Russia broke, reflect that. Everything else is Historical fantasy that belong to a Russian nazi fairy tale collection.
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under agreement with Ukraine Russians maintained 30k troops in Crimea. During Maidan Russians were told that Ukraine will no longer lease them this Port. People of Crimea were scared of Maidan coming to their door steps. So Russians take Crimea back from Ukraine. The people there don't mind the well policed streets to the mess Ukraine is in. At a time like this I would imagine that in Crimea announcing unpopular opinions about current events has some repercussions.
Russians think Ukrainians are their brothers, Ukraine is divided, West Ukraine is very Russophobic, East Ukraine think they are Russians them-self. East-Ukraine understand that they are citizens of Ukraine and they are patriots of their land, but the thought of Ukrainian and Russian being a different people never occurs to them.
Brothers? Who needs enemies with "brothers" like that? Russians accepts only assimilated/russified Ukrainians, you got that right, everybody else must be assimilated in the collective or annihilated. Russian nazism 101 is to deny Ukrainians their identity. But you are missing the point here, many ethnic Russians are on the Ukrainian side because they consider Putin' Russia to be pure evil destroying Russian spirit. It's not Ukrainians vs Russians, it's little bit more involved than that.
Last edited by RememberMee; 02-24-2015 at 03:08 AM..
Please do, because I hear different things about it/different theories.
A year ago, when the Russian spring just started, people in Kharkov, Donetsk and Lugansk regions were the most active supporters of the idea to secede from Ukraine. Kharkov caused the biggest concern in Kiev, there was sent the new mayor, who filled the town with radicals from Praviy sector, briefly he was able to bring the situation under control. Despite this apparent calm, a part of Kharkiv region was included into the ATO plan in the summer of the last year and radicals not once said that the whole region should become a part of ATO.
The last few monts even this "calm" start to disappear. Many times nazis were beaten by locals, after events of the last spring, Kiev needed to do something, or Kharkiv will join Donetsk and Lugansk.
Suddenly comes this attack, which (of course) was made by the locals who support the idea of creating of Kharkov People's Respublic (people in Odessa burned themselves, people in the Donbas shoot themselves, people in Kharkov shoot meeting themselves and only Ukraine doesn't shoot at all). Two hours later was reported that the criminals were arrested, but they were detained during the day time and at the photos and videos from arrest clearly seen that the action takes place in the late evening or at night time. One more important detail is that a day before this attack a lot of military equipment was brought to Kharkov. It is strange, right? How did they knew what will happen the next day? If they knew, why they let it happen and why there's a mismatch between the time of arrest and and time of day. Who are these peole? I'm sure that this is one more provocation. I've seen enough such "attacks" to understand who is responcible for them.
My friend from our army says that most probably Kharkivsky region will become a part of ATO zone. As he said, "It's okay, it's such a truce in Kiev"
Comrade Selena, as a good Russian nazi should, demonizes pravii sector (all 1,500 card holding members, I guess), denies busing the nazi "rebels" from Russia to attack government buildings, denies that crazy, blood thirsty Russian nazi crowds kick started it all with attacking, beating and killing of pro Ukrainian protesters ( Russian speaking residents of their cities). Crazed Russian nazis tortured and killed a few people having passports with West Ukrainian registration, simple people having nothing to do with anything, paranoia went homicidal. 23 years of watching Russian TV does things to you. It permanently damages brain and soul. In Odessa local Russian nazi were jumping to FSB orders, it is not quite clear what happened there, it's either a workplace accident or they were gassed (accidentally or intentionally), anyway the Russian propaganda machine took great advantage of the fire. Considering that Russian nazis were shooting in the unarmed crowd before the fire, it is a top of the russian cynicism to blame the Ukrainian patriots that came to the trade union building to counter act the murderous traitors. Betraying your country is and should be dangerous, yet all the evidence point to the gas poisoning, nobody burned them alive. All the stories about people preventing russians nazis from escaping the building proved to be fake, as that Odessa doctor' story on facebook.
One point comrade Selana missed, Kharkov region has a sizable chunk of non assimilated Ukrainians, who already know what Russian nazis have in their sleeves for them. Not only that, many Russians and Russian speakers view Russia as an evil, oppressive Mordor. Kharkov region is very different from thoroughly (lumpen) proletarian, assimilated and rootless Donbass. Russian nazi empire will have to deploy sizable forces to subdue it.
As of today there are 4 dead victims of the Kharkov blast. 15 years old boy, 18 years old student, 52 years old ethnic Russian, and a police officer were killed to the glory of the Russian Reich.
Last edited by RememberMee; 02-24-2015 at 06:27 AM..
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