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I just pointed that Ukrainian nationalists don't attack Kuban. Just 100 years ago, (non russified) Ukrainian ethnicity and Ukrainian language reached as far as modern Volgograd, including Kuban, Voronezh, Belgorod, etc.. Essentially Soviets and Russians committed mass Ukrainian ethnocide, linguicide and genocide. There are only 2 millions of mostly russified Ukrainians remain in the Russian Federation, tenfold decrease from 1920, at least. Yet, despite the best russification efforts of the Soviets and Russian authorities a few Ukrainian speakers survive in Kuban', descendants of the Cossacks Catherine II forced out of Ukraine.
There used to be a time when Don Cossacks would be offended at being called "Russians". It took some imperial pacification for them to accept that label. Again, you display a typical privatization of Russian Empire legacy by the Russian ethnic nationalists. Russian empire (mostly Ukrainians + Russians) conquered the lands of the nomadic tartars, including Crimea, both ethnicities settled that land relatively recently in the historical terms, both ethnicities paid heavy price for the imperial conquests, especially Ukrainians. Donbass region was a border land between Don and Ukrainian Cossacks based out of Zaporozhye, in the beginning, neither group of Cossacks identified itself in the ethnic terms. Tsarist regime wiped out Ukrainian Cossacks and tamed/russified Don Cossacks turning them in the chain dogs of Empire, yet Soviet regime wiped out Don Cossacks as a self-replicating, self-containing group. The clowns who claim to be "Don Cossacks" 80 years after soviets dealt with the Cossack nest of counter revolution, are just that, clowns. I could dress myself in a Roman robe and claim to be a lawful heir of Roman empire too.
I am already aware of feverish rewriting of history by Ukrainian nationalists, however that doesn't mean that I am going to waste my time on discussion of silly things. It's obvious what Poroshenko said recently, that dwellers of the Western parts of the country are "basis of the country's statehood." Which is patently false in its very core, since these particular regions in essence are foreign to Ukraine from historic perspective. But with all the love for anything and everything "Western," Ukrainian * liberals* are pushing their falsified history on the rest of the country, and that's why their efforts are doomed, and that's why this whole project of "Ukraine has no historic connection to Russia" is doomed.
To make the long story short - Ukraine came to ask for Russia's help and protection in 16th century, because Ukrainians felt oppressed by Poles and Catholicism, while retaining their original Orthodoxy, center of which moved to Moscow, leaving Ukrainians behind.
What came out of it is a long story. Was it always good? No. Was it always bad? Again no. Let's just put it this way - whatever took place was inevitable, and any attempt that's made to use Ukraine against Russia (as shrewd as this attempt might be,) is not going to succeed.
Y'know maybe it just some people who give a damn about their country and who are not going to let their voices be unheard.
I doesn't make any sense. Putin' brownshirts are determined to shut down the voices they don't like, they are to judge what's patriotic and what's not. Brownshirts are a message to the people who might consider protests. Just like "rebels" in Ukraine, brownshirts in Russia are not subjected to any laws or rules of engagement with "traitors", they can do things police will be afraid to do, and most importantly, Putin & Co cannot be blamed for the "popular" outrage. Putin' brownshirts are modified Yanukovich thugs, former Ukrainian president' clan just hired criminal thugs to beat up and kill protestors. A thug with a touch of ideology and patriotism, who could object that?
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This makes a lot of sense to me. Who are some to say how others should live? That's not freedom, that's imposing the views of some onto others. That's oppression which is what is being done in Ukraine every day all over the place. With a 30 second google search you can once again be shot out of the air in a ball of fire Rem. Examples of oppression in the last year - in Ukraine - abound. Just Look up Oleg Lyashko on youtube. You contribute nothing here.
Ukraine is full of the outspoken Russian nazi sympathizers who wish for Ukraine to disappear. That's how vicious those Ukrainian Nazis are. They didn't even organize groups policing the streets looking for the Russian leaning traitors, (unlike Russia) one cannot get a prison term for posting opinions on internet forums, etc. In the time of a national emergency of life or death kind, it is not a compliment to Ukraine. "terrorist" double speak instead of honestly calling a war a war doesn't help, it allows open treason under disguise of democracy and free speech.
As for minority imposing its will on majority. Do you have opinion data to claim that? Ukrainians (even those living in Donbass) disliked regime of yanukovich universally, that's why it didn't receive any popular support in Kiev. It's not majority vs minority. It's politically active majority vs politically active minority. Arithmetic majority is passive and fearful to defend even the most dear to its heart things. You have to have some data to claim that the wishes of the passive majority were abused by the politically active majority. There was no politically active pro Yanukovich support to match the protests, just police + thugs. It's the only thing an external observer could see, and it's the only thing that truly matters in the turbulent times.
1. It were you who decided to compare Mari Le Pen ( French) with Pravy Sector to begin with.
Putin' regime have financed Marie Le Pen party (and who knows what other Euro nazis, euro leftists are traditional Russian clients), Russians elected fascist clown Zhyrynovsky' party to the Russian parliament, fascist ideologue Dugin is sponsored and accepted by the Russian regime. Those three represent acceptable, in the averaged Russian opinion, right wing ideology. Since it's you who demonize Pravii Sektor here, it's up to you to compare the ideology and statements of Pravii Sektor to those of 1, 2 and 3. A fine propagandist like yourself refuses to compare and sticks to labeling and demonizing, because an honest comparison will destroy 200 pages of BS you've generated here.
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2. Let's go over it one more time, slowly... Russia ( as Ukraine) has "liberals" (i.e. people who believe in the "endless goodness" of the West ( and Lev Shlossberg whom you've mentioned in one of your posts for example, belongs to this particular category of people,) and Russia has nationalists ( of different shapes and colors, but I won't get into the details here.) However in Russia these two forces never united, where in Ukraine the "liberals" came to power on the backs of the nationalists, supported by their rifles, ( or rather Molotov's cocktails and baseball bats,) and now in return the liberals have to share their power with the nationalists. Not a viable scenario in Russia, not at all.
Who are the "liberals" you are talking about? Names only please, no bs? The new old guys who came to power in Ukraine were an integral part of the Ukrainian post soviet feudalism, they've made quite well for themselves, yet the Regime of Yanukovich in all its lawless majesty scared off even them. Besides, if not for the rebellious crowd, the new old guys would have settled with Yanukovich many times over. All they needed to send a message to the Yanukovich clan "moderate your greed, don't go berserk, look at those crowds". The crowd had different ideas on their minds, Russian aggression forced people to accept new old feudal barons instead of cleansing the power structures, it's not clear whether they've made the right choice. Please, no maidan nationalist nonsense until you answer the question above.
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3. Putin's reaction to Maidan's events plus reaction of general Russian population (that's very much aware of American involvement in these events) was quite predictable. What else did you expect? It all plays in Putin's hands and his consolidation of power rather nicely.
Russian aggression was predictable? What American involvement are you talking about, no generic bs, names, amounts, etc.? Considering all those hundreds of billions dollars Russian regime wasted on the latest imperial adventure, it's not clear why Russians didn't use those dollars to counteract "American" influences you hint on. America and everything it stands for is on one side and semi criminal post Soviet feudalism is on the other side, hmm, what would you choose? Yeah, we know your choice, to shill for the Russian Faterland without experiencing its rigors. You enjoy, but don't appreciate, the things US liberalism provided to you. You don't want the same things you have for the Russians or Ukrainians. That's some weird concoction.
Last edited by RememberMee; 02-21-2015 at 08:43 AM..
I doesn't make any sense. Putin' brownshirts are determined to shut down the voices they don't like, they are to judge what's patriotic and what's not. Brownshirts are a message to the people who might consider protests. Just like "rebels" in Ukraine, brownshirts in Russia are not subjected to any laws or rules of engagement with "traitors", they can do things police will be afraid to do, and most importantly, Putin & Co cannot be blamed for the "popular" outrage. Putin' brownshirts are modified Yanukovich thugs, former Ukrainian president' clan just hired criminal thugs to beat up and kill protestors. A thug with a touch of ideology and patriotism, who could object that?
Everything you said is potentially true and using groups of people is a common tactic in political struggles. It's a fact among the Ukrainian people today, as I said evidence abounds of the oppressive nature of the Kiev junta. It seems to me that Russians are aware enough to want to prevent some small minority of the population from destroying everything. Good for them. Pick your poison.
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A thug with a touch of ideology and patriotism, who could object that?
The Kiev junta certainly DID NOT. They allowed them to run rampant and even now fear them, the mad dogs are trotting home?
I'll be first to say that Russia needs change but the kind of change it needs is not going to come about by conflict.
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As for minority imposing its will on majority. Do you have opinion data to claim that?
Stop asking stupid questions. The evidence is all over the place. It's statements like this that make me think you're paid. BLAHBLAHBLAH!!
I am already aware of feverish rewriting of history by Ukrainian nationalists, however that doesn't mean that I am going to waste my time on discussion of silly things.
Another propaganda trick, comrade erasure. I've made plenty of the historical claims you could refute if it would be possible without citing Zavtra, Dugin, Zhyrinovsky etc..
I know little bit history of the Russian nazism. I know for a fact that in 1914 Russian nazis and Russian imperial regime considered Lvov, Galicia and Western Ukrainians to be bona-fide Russians, integral part of the Russian world just like Eastern Ukrainians. The feeling was mutual, Galicia residents loved Russia in 1914. What happened then? Russia began to treat Western Ukraine the same way it was treating Eastern Ukraine. WWI was raging but Russian nazis were occupied with assimilation of the Galicia into Russian collective. Locals didn't like it. Neither Western Ukrainians liked Stalin regime killing 200,000 of their own and expelling 1,000,000 more in 1939-1940, they have fought back. And this fighting back Russian nazis cannot forgive nor forget. Actually Galicia resistance affected collective Russian psyche, it tries to expel Western Ukrainians to maintain coherent picture of the world.
It would be insane to deny common Russian-Ukrainian history (but Russians deny it all the time when they want to annex or privatize something of common history), also it's insane to deny heavy price Ukrainians have paid for that common history, it's insane to ponder about what if (unless you are a Russian. Alternative history genre is very popular among Russian readers, Russia is always victorious in those books).
Last edited by RememberMee; 02-21-2015 at 08:29 AM..
Everything you said is potentially true and using groups of people is a common tactic in political struggles. It's a fact among the Ukrainian people today, as I said evidence abounds of the oppressive nature of the Kiev junta. It seems to me that Russians are aware enough to want to prevent some small minority of the population from destroying everything. Good for them. Pick your poison.
Who are those Russians brownshirts who are designated to express common will of all the Russians? Are the brownshirts psychics continuously monitoring Russian collective mind? Who have elected them to enforce common will on the dissidents? Evidence is abound that Kiev has no guts to fire (not speaking of imprisoning) government officials expressing anti Ukrainian, treasonous sentiments. Evidence is abound that Kremlin junta legally prosecutes regular people for the crimes of expressing their pro Ukrainian opinions. Are you a psychic to know what 140 millions of the Russians aware of?
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Stop asking stupid questions. The evidence is all over the place. It's statements like this that make me think you're paid. BLAHBLAHBLAH!!
There is no evidence, it's all in your mind, or you wouldn't be making silly statements like this.
Who are those Russians brownshirts who are designated to express common will of all the Russians? Are the brownshirts psychics continuously monitoring Russian collective mind? Who have elected them to enforce common will on the dissidents?
I think they're there to protect their point of view. This biker guy who is the leader is of course there for other reasons, namely personal gain but then there is good and bad in everything.
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There is no evidence, it's all in your mind
Are you reading my mind?
This is a stupid discussion. You can't do any better?
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