I do not do those house wife things. (looking, personal, relations)

[Djuna]

My SO is upstairs at this very moment vacuuming with the brand new Hoover we just bought. Later tonight he will prepare and cook a very tasty dinner

[onihC]

2mares,
It's not about being the first couple of dates (which can go for months or years) that men pay, it's about EXPECTING men to do something. It seems it bothers lots of women in and out of the forum to have men EXPECT them to do something, in this case, housechores. That is why I mentioned I found it interesting how women do expect men to fulfill certain roles, yet, get upset if something is expected from women.

Originally Posted by Djuna

Are you a woman who stays at home and raises children?

Nope, and not all women here have children around the house either. Some are out already, got kicked out at 18, are at least teenagers, etc. It's the whole "women are expected" that seems to bother many. And I also find it pretty bad for women to be expected to do something. As bad as women expecting men to take care of them (expenses, romance, initiative, asking out, etc.).

[Yzette]

Originally Posted by onihC

Go see those threads, you'll see what I mean. I just find it interesting how women reacted to that thread and now this one. I do agree with you and other women who are upset about housechores being expected from women. It's a bit sexist. I find it as bad and sexist for women to expect men to treat them better (chivalry), pay for their stuff, etc. I guess you and I can agree that both men and women should contribute to housechores, expenses, romance, initiative, etc. since day #1, cool .

And we all know who does MOST of the asking.

Dang straight. I'm 43. In my experience, the men who would traditionally be in my playgroup--40 to 50--are more likely to have the attitude I despise and expect a woman to do all the cooking and cleaning, even though she has a career. I'm certainly not about to start asking for that!

Granted, being younger is no guarantee of enlightenment, as my wasband was 7 years younger, but the odds are more in their favor as many of them grew up in households where their mothers worked. The best kind of man to date, in my opinion, is often the son of a woman with a good career.

I would wonder how my guy got to be so liberated--he's younger but comes from a mostly traditional NY Italian family--but I know that it's because he was taken advantage of, too. He owned the house, worked his arse off, paid all the bills, and his ex-girlfriend was pretty much a houseplant. She didn't work, barely cooked, and the place was always a mess. She basically sat around all day. So, he knows how it feels.

Not that I'd wish it upon anyone, but thank goodness.

[tamajane]

Originally Posted by Mt-7

Wow, this just keeps going on.
Can I get a little respect for the "wifey work"?

BTW I can pull and change a toliet.
Put up sheetrock.
Combine.
and still put that cake mix together.

Yes, you got the respect. It sounds like you may be a little defensive about it - some women just don't enjoy doing what you enjoy doing. It doesn't make anyone better or worse, right or wrong, or more or less jaded or loving, etc. I set up my home to be as low maintenance as possible because I like doing other things more as does my boyfriend. Like the woman in the original post, I would also leave a man who expected me to be someone I am not. Often it happens slowly and insidiously, where a spouse is expected to change and they lose themselves.

[Djuna]

For me personally staying at home was boring and tiresome. I played good little housewife for about 6 months when my kids were little and I almost went insane. I would rather be a happy Mother in the workplace than a miserable witch Mother staying at home all day. My daughters ended up pretty ok, both independent freethinkers.

All I want for my daughters is for them not to feel pressured to get married, have kids and play the good housewife. There is too much in life to do than have to settle for that old stereotype.

[Yzette]

Originally Posted by max's mama

Yes, I do agree with the above. Keeping the house clean should be a collective effort. I think the issue that I have personally is when a woman says that she doesn't need to do any of those things and her husband shouldn't say "shyt" about it.

You know what I learned from other men? When they say to their wifes: "Honey, I don't really care that much whether you cook or clean, it's your heart that matters", they are lying!!! Because guess what? When they are at the wife's girlfriend's house and she cooks a great homemade meal, the husband secretly thinks: "I wish my wife cooked like that for me". Or when he sees how neat and organized the house is, he thinks " I wish my wife kept the house so nice and neat".
It's worth mentioning that there are so many other qualities that are more important for a man, but if he had a choice between a woman he loves that cooks and a woman he loves and doesn't cook, I bet you, he would prefer the first situation.
So why not make your man happy???

On the other hand, when a woman is bending backwards for him, being a great housekeeper and doesn't get an ounce of appreciation, than he may as well shove it. And let's face it, 90% of the time it all comes down to sex. She would be so much more willing to cook a great meal after having multiple orgasms (suppose to walking around unsatisfied, waiting for him to leave so she can pull out her vibrator).

I'm the first one to joke about the B and B method of keeping a man happy--keep the belly full and the balls empty--but the whole issue that I rail against is woman working fulltime, man working fulltime, woman doing all the daily household chores, man mowing the lawn once a week and thinking he's done.

But to counter your argument, I think that given the choice between a woman who is good in the bedroom and a woman who is good in the kitchen, they'll take the one who is good in the bedroom and call for reservations.

[onihC]

Dang straight. I'm 43. In my experience, the men who would traditionally be in my playgroup--40 to 50--are more likely to have the attitude I despise and expect a woman to do all the cooking and cleaning, even though she has a career. I'm certainly not about to start asking for that!

I was not that far off when I said that a woman with a career is less likely to feel great to do housechores or be seen with an apron in a kitchen. I think it was also mentioned in that thread about why career women have it harder with men and how men lose interest or rather look somewhere else.

He owned the house, worked his arse off, paid all the bills, and his ex-girlfriend was pretty much a houseplant. She didn't work, barely cooked, and the place was always a mess. She basically sat around all day

But I somehow think that is acceptable in western culture, you know, men taking care of a woman, being a real man/gentleman, etc. and her just being a lady. Sure, maybe you and I might not like that.

Not that I'd wish it upon anyone, but thank goodness

That's right. Like I have said before, I didn't grow up with such thing as "Onihc, this is a man's job while X is a woman's job. So do X while your sister does X" Nope. I could be gardening or washing dishes while my sister was outside helping my dad change a tire or paint a wall or vice versa. I don't see how chivalry, cooking, taking care of expenses, washing dishes, romancing, mopping the floor, asking out, etc. should have a gender specific tag. Still, people seem to cherry pick and chose which traditions benefit them and then go on expecting men/women to do something for them.

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by Avienne

But to counter your argument, I think that given the choice between a woman who is good in the bedroom and a woman who is good in the kitchen, they'll take the one who is good in the bedroom and call for reservations.

Oh, I'm not about to argue this point!

[stan4]

Originally Posted by onihC

I
That's right. Like I have said before, I didn't grow up with such thing as "Onihc, this is a man's job while X is a woman's job. So do X while your sister does X" Nope. I could be gardening or washing dishes while my sister was outside helping my dad change a tire or paint a wall or vice versa. I don't see how chivalry, cooking, taking care of expenses, washing dishes, romancing, mopping the floor, asking out, etc. should have a gender specific tag. Still, people seem to cherry pick and chose which traditions benefit them and then go on expecting men/women to do something for them.

Amen.

But little boys lolling on the couch watching football while mom takes little girl to the kitchen to help with Thanksgiving dinner are going learn that is what's normal and expected. Which is why we have to raise them differently.

Men, women aren't there to be your maid or your mother.
Women, men aren't there to bankroll your existence.
Parents, split your chores between the male and female members of your family...or find what people like to do and let them do that. Children are watching you!!
If I could teach my little brother to put down the toilet seat (his fiancee owes me), we can all teach our kids better than to allow discrimination and expectations to foul up their marital relationships.

I make six times more money than my partner. If I was a real a-hole, I could say, "Well, then, I'm gonna do one sixth of the household chores." But that would just make me an a-hole. I love to do the floors (vacuuming, steam cleaning, etc). I love to cook. Grocery shop. My day today will be cleaning the bathrooms and taking the dog to the vet. My day tomorrow will be babysitting the plumbers while they install a new water heater and unpacking boxes.

Both our thoughts are to what makes our relationship and lives together work and tick...not what's fair or who is what gender and who deserves or expects what.

[onihC]

But to counter your argument, I think that given the choice between a woman who is good in the bedroom and a woman who is good in the kitchen, they'll take the one who is good in the bedroom and call for reservations

Good point . Also, if a woman could pick between being expected to do house chores in the mansion of a rich man or share housechores in an apartment, women would have no problems being expected to do house chores in the mansion.

Men, women aren't there to be your maid or your mother.
Women, men aren't there to bankroll your existence.
Parents, split your chores between the male and female members of your family...or find what people like to do and let them do that. Children are watching you!

That's right Stan. I saw my parents BOTH work at home and out. Don't remember my mom breaking a nail for helping my dad work in the garage or car. Don't remember my dad feeling less masculine for cooking for the family or washing dishes. When me and my brothers/sisters were young, we would also share housechore duties and they were also NOT gender-specific.

Both our thoughts are to what makes our relationship and lives together work and tick...not what's fair or who is what gender and who deserves or expects what

That's right. That is why when I hear someone say they are old-fashioned, intro traditions, blah blah blah, I wonder if they really mean BEING TRADITIONAL. If a woman says she loves traditions and is all old-fashioned, therefore, a man should treat her like a princess (chivalry), be her personal walking ATM, take initative, etc. I wonder if, being old-fashioned as they say, would totally enjoy wearing an apron and staying in the kitchen, take care of all housechores, etc. I mean, that is being old-fashioned too or are we only cherry picking traditions that benefit them? How about men who are all for traditions keeping women in the kitchen. Well? Are they also fine with the tradition of taking care of all bills and making sure his wife lives a comparable lifestyle or better than when she was single and not expect a second income to help out?