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Old 07-19-2011, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,885,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
Well like I said earlier, I dont think Bird would have been a complete bum today, placed on the right team he could thrive. I've always said that if he, and not Peja, was on that Kings squad from 1998-2004, where he wouldnt be the number one guy that opposing teams focused on, then he would have been great, unlike Peja, he is clutch, and his passing would fit right in with those guys on that squad, and Peja didnt play D either so he doesnt take anything off the table.

Now on the other hand, if you made Bird the franchise player that all those teams would place their 'preeminent defensive small forwards on'...like say you put him in Dirk's place on the Mavs from 1998-2008 for example. (Yeah I know it's not exactly like for like since Dirk played mainly the 4, but Dirk's style of play was closer to the 3 style than a traditional power forward so it's a valid comparison). Do the Mavs get better? I think it's a mixed bag...in the 2006 Finals Bird absolutely would not have choked away the chip when the Mavs were up 3-1, but on the other hand remember the ferocious D that Stephen Jackson played on Dirk in that first round series in 2007. Does Bird overcome that and lift the Mavs to win the series? I dont know. Jax was locked in

And that's one of the other issues. As great as Bird was, he had some ballers on his team. I still till this day think McHale is one of the more underrated players that people dont talk about. Ditto for DJ...in today's NBA, unless you get signed by the Miami Heat, the chances of you playing with 3 or 4 hall of famers is zero. It's typically going to be Bird (franchise) plus one decent side kick, and then a bunch of role players, some good, some bad, and then some...cheering from the bench. So Bird is going to have to hold off all these great defensive players and get his points, AND lift his teammates to a higher level, most of whom are waay under the quality he had in the 80s. And that's not easy.
I gotta be honest, I didn't really read that indepth. First the color is making my eyes bleed. But I saw a point you made about Dirk having difficulty getting his shot off. Not sure what you mean here, Dirk is capable of getting his shot off on just about anybody.

Otherwise, I don't agree with your argument, so I'll merely leave it at what I said earlier. Bird would be A-Ok today. I've had one too many long arguments lately to get too engaged in this one. But given that your opinion is in the overwhelming minority here, that's enough for me to feel comfortable in my mentality that Bird would be a dominant player today. You're free to believe whatever.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,693 posts, read 2,477,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I gotta be honest, I didn't really read that indepth. First the color is making my eyes bleed. But I saw a point you made about Dirk having difficulty getting his shot off. Not sure what you mean here, Dirk is capable of getting his shot off on just about anybody.

Otherwise, I don't agree with your argument, so I'll merely leave it at what I said earlier. Bird would be A-Ok today. I've had one too many long arguments lately to get too engaged in this one. But given that your opinion is in the overwhelming minority here, that's enough for me to feel comfortable in my mentality that Bird would be a dominant player today. You're free to believe whatever.
alright Greg my man...you and I dont agree on this, and that's cool...well this had gone on for 11 pages and 100 posts...and I've enjoyed the feedback from everyone. Peace.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,885,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
alright Greg my man...you and I dont agree on this, and that's cool..
I'll give you props for debating 'largely' alone( well with John 23's support) against the majority of us 'crazed' Bird fans who differ with you
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,693 posts, read 2,477,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I'd love to see Charles Barkley's response to the premise of this thread. He played in that era too and is incredibly insightful.

I personally feel his response would include several violations of the TOS.

You're right, Barkley is a very insightful guy...I think it's 50-50 on whether he would agree or disagree on this topic...you also have to account for generational bias...it's natural for people to think their day was better, tougher or what have you...I distinctly remember reading an interview done with the late Red Auerbach, in which he stated that his boys from the 60s would beat the tar out of the guys from the 80s...so yeah it's all generational. I'm sure 40 years from now we will be having the same argument with our grandkids...
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,693 posts, read 2,477,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
I was a Sixer fan back in the 80s so I hated Bird with a passion. But there is no doubt Bird would be just as dominant today as he was then. no question imo. Bird could put 40 up on any player from todays game. You can't appreciate how good he was simply by watching highlights of him, you had to see it to believe it. Bird WILLED the Celtics to win more than any player I have ever seen aside from MJ.

There aren't many players in today's game that have the heart of a Bird or MJ. They were the best because nobody was willing to work harder than they did.. no body.

So you don't think Kobe works hard? Garnett? Dirk??? This goes back to what I've been saying...it seems too many people automatically dismiss todays players as lazy, having low basketball IQ and what have you...and that's where you're just wrong. I'm sorry. Yes, there are players who are not committed to improving...Eddy Curry, Shaq, and far too many others unfortunately...but that does not mean that there are not players out there working their butts off every year to get better...working just as hard as Bird did
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,693 posts, read 2,477,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I think we all agree on these points.

The Euro market in paticular has provided a number of players and no doubt there are going to be a lot more foreign players coming up in future decades.

Not to hijack my own thread, but this question has always been a thought for me...in the long run, you can expect some of these foreign leagues to eventually have the type of money to entice NBA players to go to their leagues instead of the NBA...now this is not a great example, but with the lockout, supposedly some European teams are ready to pay big bucks to get NBA stars over there...now the European clubs are not quite rich enough to pay a whole bunch, maybe just one top NBA guy per team...plus the NBA guys will bolt back as soon as the lockout is over...but every year I keep reading about new billionaires in Russia, and more worryingly...China...now the Chinese League is a LOOOONNNGG way away from being competitive, never mind having funds, but with the way everything in China is exploding, plus they have Yao Ming as a role model...eventually if some money guys fund the Chinese League...it's going to be interesting to see how the NBA deals with this...and the NBA is more vulnerable than any of the other leagues since football, baseball and hockey have not caught on with the rest of the world the way basketball has...just some thoughts to ponder for the future...
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:10 AM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,893,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
I've heard this a bunch of times on this thread. Larry Bird should dominate because of his great fundamentals and high IQ...while most players today supposedly lack these traits...ok...so how do you explain what Tayshaun Prince did to Kobe in 2004??? we can all agree that whether you like Kobe or not, that guy has a great basketball IQ, very good fundamentals...is not lazy or coasting on his athletic gifts...and is one of the all time greats (Larry Bird himself has said this) yet, all that didnt save him against an athletic guy with a 7 foot wingspan and the speed to stay in front of him...And Kobe is much more athletic than Bird...

So if Tayshaun could defend Kobe, how is it impossible that he could also defend Bird??? unless you're going to say that Kobe is just so far beneath Bird as a player. (and this is 2004 Kobe, still young and at his peak mind you)

I dont dispute Bird's high IQ...but I think you (and a lot of other posters on here) don't give enough credit to players today. Not everyone is an AND1 skip to my lou type player. There are a lot of very good players who do try to think about their opponent and not the highlight reel on sportscenter.
..............didn't know tayshaun prince single handedly stopped kobe that series good to know though.. lol
that entire pistons team was great defensively. It was a team effort and kobe still averaged almost 23 a game. The question wasn't could current players guard bird it was could bird dominate and the answer is yes.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:33 PM
JL
 
7,355 posts, read 11,901,855 times
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"Alot of black guys always asked me, "Could Larry Bird really play that good? Larry Bird was so good it's frightening" "----Magic Johnson
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,637 posts, read 4,232,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
So you don't think Kobe works hard? Garnett? Dirk??? This goes back to what I've been saying...it seems too many people automatically dismiss todays players as lazy, having low basketball IQ and what have you...and that's where you're just wrong. I'm sorry. Yes, there are players who are not committed to improving...Eddy Curry, Shaq, and far too many others unfortunately...but that does not mean that there are not players out there working their butts off every year to get better...working just as hard as Bird did
I like Kobe as much as any other player in the league today and Yes I do think he Works HARD but no, I don't think he works as hard as Bird or MJ did.. The most talented players typically do not work as hard as the least talented players.. that's just life.

If I were picking an all time team today I would take MJ first, Bird second. Kobe is not on my All Time team. He would be on my current TEAM but not all time.

How many games did Larry Bird ever take off, I mean play in but not play hard in? NONE.. can Kobe say the same..
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:29 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,893,923 times
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‪Larry Bird the best ever‬‏ - YouTube

my favorite Bird video on YouTube
Bird top 3 d o.a
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