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Old 10-13-2009, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
First, I didn't write the Bible, so you cant ask me to defend why what is written in it, or ask me why something was left out

I cant take credit for the Bible or take the blame...
I assumed as much but you can take credit or blame for how you interpret it. You have given me maybe a dozen verses that sorta point to Jesus being God but without the premise of the trinity these verses you post make no claim to Jesus as fully God. AND there are countless (literally) scriptures where Jesus is shown as separate from God as we are separate from God.

Quote:
2nd
Jesus is fully 100% human
Thus Jesus had to pray and rely on the Father for all that he did.
Again this makes no sense..... If Jesus was God... and maker of all things why again did he need God the Father's help?

Your premise is that Jesus was detached from God but still attached...
Jesus is human yet inhuman...
Jesus is spiritual first (existed as God in creation) then became physical yet is physical and spiritual at the same time.... which contradicts 1 Cor. 15:46 in which it is the physical first and the spiritual second.
You say: Jesus is the servant of father, but also the Master of the father (as in creator).

Do you see that what you are doing is saying that Jesus is something but he is also the antonym as well? These are contradictory statements! Yet you say them with a straight face.

Quote:
Yet Jesus was still fully God all the time, as Tomas says to him, "My Lord and My God!"

also, as I listed before here, Jesus makes a clear claim to be God in Revelation.
I say.. "My God! I realize it now" to my husband.. am I calling him God? Thomas was indeed exclaiming that he understood that Jesus was flesh and God indeed sent him.. not that Jesus was God...Jesus said if you don't believe him at least believe that God sent him. Thomas believed then that Jesus was telling the truth (truly lord and teacher) and that God sent him.

You take an ordinary exclamation and say he is calling Jesus God.

Thomas' confession is an acknowledgment that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead, but it is not a declaration that Jesus is "God the Son". Thomas, a Jew, used a mode of expression common to the Old Testament in which accredited representatives of God are referred to as "God". Angels are called "God" in the following passages: Gen. 16:7 cf. vs. 13; 22:8, 11, 15 cf. vs. 16; Exod. 23:20, 21. Moses is referred to as a "god" to Pharaoh. (Exod. 7:1, "god" is translated from the Heb. "elohim"). "Elohim" translated "God" can refer to the judges of Israel as in Psa. 82:1, 6 cf. John 10:34. It is also translated "judges" in Exod. 21:6; 22:8, 9 and "gods" (mg. "judges") in Exod. 22:28.

From a website... as I don't have time right now to go through every verse... the website is: The Trinity - John 20:28
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
On the contrary, Kat . . . it has to be left to human interpretation to insure the self-directed understanding necessary to achieve even harmonic resonance (love) with a completely self-directed being . . . God.
If that is true then we can say the same for the gospel.. right?

Yet Jesus felt the need and was directed by God (the father) to teach the gospel and to increase understanding of God. Why then is it neccessary for me to be self-directed to the belief that Jesus is God when even God left that out of the teachings of Christ?

God said "this is my son in whom I am well pleased".. did God say "this is me and I please myself?" nope he said this is my son... just as Jesus said he is the son of God... why not just come out and profess he was God? why the secrecy and use of Son? Just to show the relationship? But he also says if you don't believe in Jesus as Christ just look at what works he does and know they are of God..

Also,
John 5:31-32 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.

So Jesus knows that he is God but he can't seem to testify about himself?

John 5:41 “I do not accept praise from men,

Yet men praise him for no reason as he does not accept it.

John 5:44 How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?

even here Jesus says that "the only God" is pleased with Jesus but they won't accept it... If Jesus says that God the Father is the only God.. why is there another in your interpretation of the scripture?
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:36 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,365,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again this makes no sense..... If Jesus was God... and maker of all things why again did he need God the Father's help?
You and Alan make the same assumptions . . . that there must be some magical distinction between God status and everything else. God IS everything else . . . but His consciousness is a very specific element of everything else. Also Jesus was fully human . . . that requires maturation (also known as "perfection" in scriptures and the real "baptism" Jesus needed to be baptised with at His crucifixion).
Quote:
Your premise is that Jesus was detached from God but still attached...
Jesus is human yet inhuman...
Jesus is spiritual first (existed as God in creation) then became physical yet is physical and spiritual at the same time.... which contradicts 1 Cor. 15:46 in which it is the physical first and the spiritual second.
You say: Jesus is the servant of father, but also the Master of the father (as in creator).Do you see that what you are doing is saying that Jesus is something but he is also the antonym as well? These are contradictory statements! Yet you say them with a straight face.
As I said . . you are confusing and conflating the process stages of His "perfection" as differences in His essence. For ALL humans the physical is first and must DEVELOP into the spiritual . . . so it was with Jesus who was FULLY human.
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You and Alan make the same assumptions . . . that there must be some magical distinction between God status and everything else. God IS everything else . . . but His consciousness is a very specific element of everything else. Also Jesus was fully human . . . that requires maturation (also known as "perfection" in scriptures and the real "baptism" Jesus needed to be baptised with at His crucifixion). As I said . . you are confusing and conflating the process stages of His "perfection" as differences in His essence. For ALL humans the physical is first and must DEVELOP into the spiritual . . . so it was with Jesus who was FULLY human.
I understand your point... I also think it is hilarious that we are "fighting" (LOL not really fighting but you get what I mean) over this issue of trinity but yet on the same side in the thread about UR... It's funny and yet I like that I can agree with you and debate with you at the same time. It makes for a very good and enlightening debate. So I thank you!

Here is what I see.. If Jesus is God.. he would not need to mature. If Jesus was human he needed to mature.

You say God is everything else.. I tend to agree which is why I can't comprehend why you think it is Jesus that is God. If God is everything then God would be me..or you... or Jesus.

Here are some points that I hope you will address as I have not had a chance to see a rebuttal...

"The Holy Spirit is the power of God. (Luke 1:35). Consequently, what the Holy Spirit does is really what God is doing. For example, the "Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit . . . shall teach you all things" (John 14:26) means simply: "God shall teach you all things through his divine power." Similarly, although the Scriptures cannot literally "say" anything, it is written: "For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh." (Rom. 9:17). God said this, and His human penman, guided by Holy Spirit power, reliably recorded it. In this quotation there is a merging of what "God says" with what "Scripture says". Likewise, the Holy Spirit is said to "speak", "bear witness", and to be a "comforter" when in actuality it is God doing the speaking, bearing witness and comforting, by his power - the Holy Spirit." The Trinity - The Personality of the Holy Spirit

So by dropping the subject of Christ being God and focusing instead on the Holy Spirit as the third person perhaps we can see some resemblance to the claim that Christ is God...

The holy spirit is said to "speak", "bear witness", be a "comforter" when it is actually God speaking through the power of the His Spirit.. How is it then that Jesus possesses the power of God (Holy Spirit) as shown in Christ's baptism, yet the Holy Spirit is said in the trinitarian view to be separate from God as Christ is yet one with God? There is no line between the power attributed to Christ and that attributed to the Holy Spirit yet the Holy Spirit is counted as the 3rd person in the trinity..

Does that make sense? Christ is a person who has God's spirit who is a separate person... so does that mean that the holy spirit and Christ came to earth as God in the flesh?
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,131,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You and Alan make the same assumptions . . . that there must be some magical distinction between God status and everything else. God IS everything else . . . but His consciousness is a very specific element of everything else. Also Jesus was fully human . . . that requires maturation (also known as "perfection" in scriptures and the real "baptism" Jesus needed to be baptised with at His crucifixion). As I said . . you are confusing and conflating the process stages of His "perfection" as differences in His essence. For ALL humans the physical is first and must DEVELOP into the spiritual . . . so it was with Jesus who was FULLY human.
I have to say that I actually agree with you here. Jesus was a man who was able to be perfect (live without sin) like his Father and our Father is perfect. That is supposed to be the goal of us all and can be accomplished if one is willing to walk as Jesus walked. As Paul said, we will go through many tribulations before we can enter into the Kingdom. This can be a very hard and long process but it is attainable and then we can learn the hidden mysteries of God, while we are carnal and following the teaching of other men, we will never learn them. There is only One Teacher. Jesus came to show us The Way...all we have to do is take up our cross daily and follow him.
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Old 10-13-2009, 02:29 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,365,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I understand your point... I also think it is hilarious that we are "fighting" (LOL not really fighting but you get what I mean) over this issue of trinity but yet on the same side in the thread about UR... It's funny and yet I like that I can agree with you and debate with you at the same time. It makes for a very good and enlightening debate. So I thank you!
It is entirely mutual . . . "iron sharpens iron."
Quote:
Here is what I see.. If Jesus is God.. he would not need to mature. If Jesus was human he needed to mature.
False dichotomy . . . the physical is fully there . . . but the spiritual is there as a seed in ALL humans . . . even Jesus.
Quote:
You say God is everything else.. I tend to agree which is why I can't comprehend why you think it is Jesus that is God. If God is everything then God would be me..or you... or Jesus.
All parts of our bodies are US . . . but not all are equal to our consciousness . . . and for all inents and purposes only the consciousness part of us (power of us) is truly US.
Quote:
\ Here are some points that I hope you will address as I have not had a chance to see a rebuttal...

"The Holy Spirit is the power of God. (Luke 1:35). Consequently, what the Holy Spirit does is really what God is doing. For example, the "Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit . . . shall teach you all things" (John 14:26) means simply: "God shall teach you all things through his divine power." Similarly, although the Scriptures cannot literally "say" anything, it is written: "For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh." (Rom. 9:17). God said this, and His human penman, guided by Holy Spirit power, reliably recorded it. In this quotation there is a merging of what "God says" with what "Scripture says". Likewise, the Holy Spirit is said to "speak", "bear witness", and to be a "comforter" when in actuality it is God doing the speaking, bearing witness and comforting, by his power - the Holy Spirit." The Trinity - The Personality of the Holy Spirit

So by dropping the subject of Christ being God and focusing instead on the Holy Spirit as the third person perhaps we can see some resemblance to the claim that Christ is God...

The holy spirit is said to "speak", "bear witness", be a "comforter" when it is actually God speaking through the power of the His Spirit.. How is it then that Jesus possesses the power of God (Holy Spirit) as shown in Christ's baptism, yet the Holy Spirit is said in the trinitarian view to be separate from God as Christ is yet one with God? There is no line between the power attributed to Christ and that attributed to the Holy Spirit yet the Holy Spirit is counted as the 3rd person in the trinity..

Does that make sense? Christ is a person who has God's spirit who is a separate person... so does that mean that the holy spirit and Christ came to earth as God in the flesh?
I hope you begin to see why I made the distinctions above between our bodies and us . . . with the allusion to the "power of us." The distinctions are all irrelevant . . . it is the consciousness of God that defines God and our universe as we experience it. We are separate "tuning forks" of consciousness attempting to get in "tune" with God. All we are able to produce are "harmonic resonances" in love. Jesus produced perfect resonance. Mathematically when two separate sources approach perfect resonance their amplitudes approach infinity (God) = IDENTICAL. We can try . . but I am not sanguine about our ability to achieve perfect resonance.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is entirely mutual . . . "iron sharpens iron.


Quote:
"False dichotomy . . . the physical is fully there . . . but the spiritual is there as a seed in ALL humans . . . even Jesus.
I agree that though we are physical as Jesus was we all have the spiritual seed which must grow and mature into what Jesus showed as being "one" with God.
Quote:
All parts of our bodies are US . . . but not all are equal to our consciousness . . . and for all inents and purposes only the consciousness part of us (power of us) is truly US.
So we have physical bodies so that we can interact with the physical world but you are saying that the consciousness is who we truly are.. however, some believe that there is no conscious thought after death so I would rather use the term energy rather than consciousness. But same concept in that our bodies only house the energy rather than are the energy. It is said though that we should still respect our bodies as the living (physical) temple of God. So that being said, we can differentiate each other by our physical qualities rather than our consciousness.

Quote:
I hope you begin to see why I made the distinctions above between our bodies and us . . . with the allusion to the "power of us." The distinctions are all irrelevant . . . it is the consciousness of God that defines God and our universe as we experience it.
I fully understand why you make the distinctions.. however I don't understand how you can make a distinction between our consciousness and Jesus'. We are the same mortal being with consciousness that he was... God however does not have a mortal body so God is pure consciousness yet the mortal Jesus was able to emulate the consciousness of God... So then can we.. right?

Quote:
We are separate "tuning forks" of consciousness attempting to get in "tune" with God. All we are able to produce are "harmonic resonances" in love. Jesus produced perfect resonance. Mathematically when two separate sources approach perfect resonance their amplitudes approach infinity (God) = IDENTICAL. We can try . . but I am not sanguine about our ability to achieve perfect resonance.
See and that is where I say that if Jesus was fully man and 0% God and yet achieved perfect resonance then we as fully man can as well.... it is when you lift Jesus up to have something we don't... namely Godhood...that it becomes impossible for us to do anything but try and as such our hope is to be harmonious but not in perfect resonance...

But Jesus specifically said in his prayer (John 17) that he "hoped" that we would be "one" with the Father as he is "one" with the Father... so is he praying for something that is not possible for simple humans?

I don't think so.. I think Jesus said that because it is entirely possible if we see that our consciousness and Jesus' consciousness are the same if the spirit of God (spiritual seed) is added. Leaving the physical behind and becoming the Image of God in all things....

Now being a human I have a hard time seeing this ever happening in me but then I count myself as one of the lowest on the spiritual totem pole! Jesus and the disciples seem to have had a head start... so to speak.

It also goes to show that the disciples performing the same things that Jesus did was not because Jesus himself was with them (although he may well have been) but because the Comforter was sent.

In all these posts about Christ I have yet to see someone distinguish Christ from the Holy Spirit and that bothers me... it is the Holy Spirit who is God's power and the same Spirit powered Jesus and powers our consciousness (when we let it ) so that it becomes hard to distinguish whether or not the Holy Spirit is indeed a separate consciousness from that of God the Father or Christ...
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:24 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,365,683 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So we have physical bodies so that we can interact with the physical world but you are saying that the consciousness is who we truly are.. however, some believe that there is no conscious thought after death so I would rather use the term energy rather than consciousness. But same concept in that our bodies only house the energy rather than are the energy.
Energy is all there is too, Kat. Consciousness is a composite form of energy transformed through the processes within the brain . . . as the flames of a fire are produced by the transformative processes in the combustibles. ALL is energy change of form. So to distinguish between consciousness and energy is unnecessary . . it is a form of energy. Just because the "production factory" (body and brain) shuts down . . . it has NO effect on what has already been produced . . . it only prevents any further production(fire)
Quote:
.. It is said though that we should still respect our bodies as the living (physical) temple of God. So that being said, we can differentiate each other by our physical qualities rather than our consciousness.
There is no point in differentiating among the "factories" . . . (other than in their efficiency and quality of production of the "product"). Respect is the equivalent of caring enough to maintain and keep clean the production facility to maximize the quality of production.
Quote:
I fully understand why you make the distinctions.. however I don't understand how you can make a distinction between our consciousness and Jesus'. We are the same mortal being with consciousness that he was... God however does not have a mortal body so God is pure consciousness yet the mortal Jesus was able to emulate the consciousness of God... So then can we.. right?
Theoretically . . . but we have far more weaknesses (Father and Mother) to overcome than Jesus's "lighter burden." His Father HAS no weaknesses. IMO . . . for any one of us to achieve it would be to achieve more than Jesus . . . unlikely . . . or there would have been no need for Jesus in the first place.
Quote:
See and that is where I say that if Jesus was fully man and 0% God and yet achieved perfect resonance then we as fully man can as well.... it is when you lift Jesus up to have something we don't... namely Godhood...that it becomes impossible for us to do anything but try and as such our hope is to be harmonious but not in perfect resonance...
That is the problem of having the "sins of the father" passed on and is why there had to be a Jesus (the ONLY Son of God = no earthly father's sins).
Quote:
But Jesus specifically said in his prayer (John 17) that he "hoped" that we would be "one" with the Father as he is "one" with the Father... so is he praying for something that is not possible for simple humans?
No . . we can achieve "harmonic resonance" with Jesus and become part of His love symphony. That is the function of harmonics . . . not to produce a one note symphony. I would be satisfied not to be first chair.
Quote:
In all these posts about Christ I have yet to see someone distinguish Christ from the Holy Spirit and that bothers me... it is the Holy Spirit who is God's power and the same Spirit powered Jesus and powers our consciousness (when we let it ) so that it becomes hard to distinguish whether or not the Holy Spirit is indeed a separate consciousness from that of God the Father or Christ...
But the Holy Spirit is what we have been talking about . . . the consciousness of God but in the same form as OUR human consciousness . . . as the result of Jesus being reborn as Spirit upon His death (as we will be also). Remember . . . as pure energy . . . consciousness is eternal . . . there is no place for it to vanish to or be annihilated after death.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet you just said that Jesus is God almighty and the maker of heaven and earth...!
Because he is...

"All things were made by Him"
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:02 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,114,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Because he is...

"All things were made by Him"
Alan, I know you had said once that it gets on your nerves when people use these silly little icons to respond . . . but I LOVE them . . .

I agree with this post of yours and give you a
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