Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You didn't answer my question, but the answer if obvious. If one believes "asking God to forgive your sins" is a requirement for salvation, you think that person is going to hell because they added to the requirement of believing. That's what you said.
Your attempt to create contention and to pit me against another member of this forum, which you will no doubt deny, have failed. It is an unhappy and vindictive person who attempts such things. It is YOUR salvation that I am inclined to doubt universalist.
Your attempt to create contention and to pit me against another member of this forum, which you will no doubt deny, have failed. It is an unhappy and vindictive person who attempts such things. It is YOUR salvation that I am inclined to doubt universalist.
Final comment.
So now we're back to name calling...LOL Been gone for a month and you've not changed...I remember reading something here about repentance....Com'on Mikey the night is still young...Are you trying to close down the thread...
Your attempt to create contention and to pit me against another member of this forum, which you will no doubt deny, have failed. It is an unhappy and vindictive person who attempts such things. It is YOUR salvation that I am inclined to doubt universalist.
Final comment.
It probably wasn't kind for me to ask you to pass judgment on a particular person based on the comment they made, and for that I apologize. I should have just asked if I understood correctly where you stood on the matter.
I am not unhappy and I'm not vindictive and my salvation is secure. I was honestly wanting to understand your beliefs, because you sound Southern Baptist to me, except you don't believe being sorry for your sins is necessary for salvation, and I find that very interesting.
It probably wasn't kind for me to ask you to pass judgment on a particular person based on the comment they made, and for that I apologize. I should have just asked if I understood correctly where you stood on the matter.
I am not unhappy and I'm not vindictive and my salvation is secure. I was honestly wanting to understand your beliefs, because you sound Southern Baptist to me, except you don't believe being sorry for your sins is necessary for salvation, and I find that very interesting.
I am of no denomination.
If you are interested in what I believe, here you go...
Where do I see the word “soul” in this verse? Answer: Nowhere. But do I SEE a soul being talked about in this verse. YES. David was once a “living soul” named DAVID and now he is a “DEAD soul” named DAVID. His SOUL did not go to heaven, only his ‘spirit’ did….
So, now he did go to heaven? Make up your mind. Is this your argument? Is this why you have gone on and on to insist that people do not go to heaven after they die, but only to grave? That, my friend is bickering at its best, and a deliberate attempt to mislead people. You have insisted all week, that people do not go to heaven when they die, and that was all you said. If someone had listened to you they would now think they are not going to heaven when they die. You see a problem with spreading such teaching? Now, after a week of seeing your being picked apart, you say that the spirit actually goes to heaven.
Well, at least you admit it in the end.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-06-2010 at 05:07 AM..
It probably wasn't kind for me to ask you to pass judgment on a particular person based on the comment they made, and for that I apologize. I should have just asked if I understood correctly where you stood on the matter.
I am not unhappy and I'm not vindictive and my salvation is secure. I was honestly wanting to understand your beliefs, because you sound Southern Baptist to me, except you don't believe being sorry for your sins is necessary for salvation, and I find that very interesting.
What I find very interesting is you say your are Baptist and yet don't believe anything Baptist believe.
Originally Posted by joeallcomm Where do I see the word “soul” in this verse? Answer: Nowhere. But do I SEE a soul being talked about in this verse. YES. David was once a “living soul” named DAVID and now he is a “DEAD soul” named DAVID. His SOUL did not go to heaven, only his ‘spirit’ did….
So, now he did go to heaven? Make up your mind. Is this your argument? Is this why you have gone on and on to insist that people do not go to heaven after they die, but only to grave? That, my friend is bickering at its best, and a deliberate attempt to mislead people. You have insisted all week, that people do not go to heaven when they die, and that was all you said. If someone had listened to you they would now think they are not going to heaven when they die. You see a problem with spreading such teaching? Now, after a week of seeing your being picked apart, you say that the spirit actually goes to heaven.
Well, at least you admit it in the end.
Finn, you need to actually read Joe's whole post and not cut out a snip out of context.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Perhaps Joe can clarify his view but I don't think he was saying that David is a "spirit" that returned to God. Man is not a "spirit". Man is a soul. The soul is a combination of spirit and body. The spirit is the life - the breath that God breathed into Adam (Gen 2:7)
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [SPIRIT] of life; and man became a living soul.
Originally Posted by legoman Wow. Why are you so disrespectful Finn? Not only to me, but to Ilene. Sheesh.
No foul language please Your true colors are showing.
"foul language"? You've got to be kidding me. Talk about a lame excuse in order to not address any points in the post. I was going to repeat the points again, but you would probably just ignore them again, so why bother.
It is God's desire that all men be saved as per 1 Tim 2:4.
It is God's purpose and intention to save only those who believe the gospel concernng Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who refuse to believe the Gospel message.
You contradict yourself right here Mike. Your rightly acknowledge God desires to save all men. Then you say that God does not intend to save all men. Here is the problem. We can't very well say that God desires to save all men but He doesn't intend to save all men, because if He did desire to save all men, He would intend to save all men!
Quote:
From the People's New Testament...
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved. The scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved,
come unto a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.
I believe this is another error in interpretation. You are saying in order for all men to be saved they must come unto a knowledge of the truth. But this is backwards. The "coming unto a knowledge of the truth" is ALSO part of God's will and desire.
God wills/desires both: for all men to be saved AND for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth.
No man can come to a knowledge of the truth by themselves, we are completely helpless to do this without God, so it is on God to bring people to a knowledge of the truth AND to save them. That's why salvation is a complete work of God.
Quote:
Man's opportunity to receive God's offer of salvation ends at the point of physical death.
(2 Cor. 6:1-2) 'Now is the day of salvation.'
Heb. 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...
Again, incorrect interpretation on your part. No one denies that judgment occurs after you die. But it is that judgment that will set things right, not condemn anyone forever.
YLT:
2 Cor 6:1 And working together also we call upon [you] that ye receive not in vain the grace of God -- 2for He saith, `In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in a day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now [is] a well-accepted time; lo, now, a day of salvation,
Now is a day of salvation, not the day of salvation. The correct translation is "a" day of salvation - its not the "only" day of salvation as you imply.
Quote:
Your questions in post 384 are in reference to who is in the lake of fire and how long are they there for.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
First of all, the beast and the false prophet are NOT 'systems' or 'institutions' as some say. They are living beings who are tormented day and night forever and ever in the eternal fire. The beast or antichrist is a human being who has been impowered and probably possessed by Satan himself. He is a man who rises to power and makes a seven year treaty with Israel as per Daniel 9:27, but breaks it midway through the Tribulation. At this time he will become the world dictator and will force eveyone to take a mark on their hand or forehead. He is the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction of 2 Thess 2who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God.
The false prophet will be the leader of the world religious system that will exist once the true church is taken off the earth. Possibly the false prophet will be the Roman Catholic Pope.
They are cast into the lake of fire forever and ever-EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON-into the ages of the ages. It is emphatic and means without end, extending into eternity. 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; Gal 1:5; Pet 4:11; Rev 1:6; Rev 1:18; Rev 4:9,10; Rev 5:13; Rev 7:12; Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 15:7; Rev 22:5.
In Rev 14:11; Rev 19:3; and Rev 20:10, the phrase EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON is used for eternal damnation.
When Satan is thrown into the eternal lake of fire, it also means that all of the fallen angels are cast into the eternal fire with him. This all happens at the end of the Millennium at which time all unbelievers are resurrected out of hades to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.
The same lake of fire is described in Matthew 25:41,46 as the eternal fire. ''Then He will also say to those on His left, ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and His angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Now, Matthew 25:41 does not refer to the Great White throne judgment, but to the judgment that occurs a thousand years earlier at the Second Advent of Christ at the end of the Tribulation when all unbelievers coming out of the Tribulation are cast off the earth. Only believers will remain on the earth to go into the Millennial kingdom of Christ. Some say Matthew 25:41 refers to hades, but the passage says 'the eternal fire prepared for Satan and his angels.'
And in 2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with Hs mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day (compare with Matthew 24:30), and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
2 Thess 1:7-10 is also a reference to the Second Advent of Christ and refers to unbelieving humanity being cast off the earth at His return.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Compared with Revelation 19:3 concerning the judgment of the great harlot Babylon. 'And a second time they said, ''Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.'' Babylon, both the city and the religious system will be destroyed forever. The judgment that comes upon Babylon is only the beginning of the punishment of the wicked as indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
Their smoke goes up forever and ever is a phrase for eternity.
God's judgments in time cannot be compared to His eternal judgments. Those who depart this life without Christ are lost forever. So says the word of God in clear and explicit language.
The passages that universalists use to defend their false doctrines do not say or imply that all men will be saved. God did everything necessary to provide salvation for those who will receive it through faith in Christ The opportunity to receive the free gift of eternal salvation ends with physical death.
There are a number of misinterpretations above which I touched on in the post you responded to. You assume the "beast" and the "false prophet" are humans, not necessarily so. You must realize there are MANY anti-christs (1 John 2:18), not just one antichrist.
None of the passages that speak of humanity being thrown into the lake of fire specify that they never get out of the lake of fire. Also the correct translation for "forever and ever" is "to the ages of the ages" which is a finite period of time.
Even your reference to Matt 25:41 does not indicate anyone is thrown into fire for eternity as it is only the fire that is described as "eternal" (really it is "eonian"), not the duration for which they are thrown into it.
Matthew 25:46 should be properly translated as (from the Concordant Literal):
Matt 26:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.
So as I summarized previously, the specific passages on the "lake of fire" do not specify exactly what happens to the humans who are thrown into it, or for what purpose they will be thrown into it. To understand that further it is useful to study what the spiritual fire does, I will try to address that in my next post.
Perhaps Joe can clarify his view but I don't think he was saying that David is a "spirit" that returned to God. Man is not a "spirit". Man is a soul. The soul is a combination of spirit and body. The spirit is the life - the breath that God breathed into Adam (Gen 2:7)
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [SPIRIT] of life; and man became a living soul.
As Joe said, "man is NOT a triune man".
Keep repeating it, but the argument has been shot down. Your friend accidentally revaled the truth, which just happens to be what I have been saying all along. This is a prime example of how some people like to spin and twist simple things and make them sound like they were not true.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If one believes "asking God to forgive your sins" is a requirement for salvation, you think that person is going to hell because they added to the requirement of believing. That's what you said.
Your true colors are showing. 
Talk about a lame excuse in order to not address any points in the post. I was going to repeat the points again, but you would probably just ignore them again, so why bother.