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Old 04-27-2012, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
13,093 posts, read 13,477,370 times
Reputation: 5766

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cBach View Post
I'll phrase the converse of this to show you how preposterous your argument is:

"If people go outdoors all the time in the winter up north, why do people have heat up north?"
All you're suggesting here is that the cold, for most of human history, was simply easier to tolerate and an easier problem to overcome.

But again, weather, as much as some you guys like to believe otherwise, plays a significantly smaller role in migration patterns than does economics.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
They are in place. My home state of SC, experiencing a huge surge in manufacturing that actually goes back to the mid-90's with landing the BMW plant and more recently with Boeing and a slew of new and expanding tire manufacturing facilities, actually has one of the nation's oldest and most experienced worker training programs, readySC.
Related, I read a management article within the last six months which said with the current growth of Chinese wages, and the decline of working-class in the U.S., five southern states will have, adjusting for shipping costs, lower labor costs than China within five years.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533
Quote:
Originally Posted by cBach View Post
I'll phrase the converse of this to show you how preposterous your argument is:

"If people go outdoors all the time in the winter up north, why do people have heat up north?"
No, I think it's pretty much the same.

In the North, people go outside in the winter when they have to, or if they are engaging in winter recreation (skiing, sledding, etc)

In the South, people go outside when they have to, or if they are engaging in summer recreation (swimming, etc).

It's undoubtedly true that people are more apt to hang out in a sidewalk cafe on a hot summer day in the South than on a cold winter day in the North. But this is probably counterbalanced by the longer summer (up here, usually it's only most of July/August which is intolerable), plus unless you go to Florida or something, some of the winter is still going to be a time you don't want to spend outside.

In no way am I arguing, by the way, that the climate of the North is superior. I'm just saying it's silly to argue that the Southern climate is superior when, like most Americans, southerners spend most of their time in climate-controlled locations.

Finding statistics for the hours spent outdoors is hard, but I did find a study here of outdoor recreation by state. Let's look at two states, one in the north, and one in the South:

New Hampshire:

24% Bike
24% Camp
13% Fish
5% Hunt
22% Paddle
25% Snow Sports
35% Trail
42% Bird/Wildlife Watch

Louisiana:


20% Bike
13% Camp
20% Fish
9% Hunt
4% Paddle
2% Snow Sports
13% Trail
23% Bird/Wildlife Watch

In all cases but fishing/hunting, more people spend time doing outdoors recreational activities in New Hampshire than Louisiana. If I used Maine or Vermont as the example, they would have beat Louisiana across the board. Even New Yorkers (over half of whom live in very urban areas) beat Louisiana on everything but hunting/fishing (they tie on birdwatching, admittedly).

Now, this doesn't tell us how much time they spend outdoors - maybe more northerners spend time doing things outdoors, but they spend less time overall. But it suggests that the climate isn't really a huge draw.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Denver
14,151 posts, read 19,749,193 times
Reputation: 8803
I hate the heat and the cold. Both suck, people have there preferences. However, I'd would rather deal with a long summer and beaches rather than a foot of snow outside my door and frozen pipes.
There are more Louisianans that live in urban areas and don't do outdoor activities as much as people probably do in New Hampshire. But why does NH come out to 190% and LA 104%?
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
18,627 posts, read 27,042,193 times
Reputation: 9576
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
The Northern states, especially traditional manufacturing states, have the infrastructure already in place and new plants are already being built in the region. Also, as someone else mentioned, you need an educated workforce, and those same states are generally much more educated overall than in the South.
Are you excluding Texas? Here are the top manufacturing cities as of 2011.

http://manufacturersnews.com/news/ch...obsJan2012.pdf

1 TX Houston 235,038
2 NY New York 140,952
3 IL Chicago 107,264
4 MO St. Louis 80,795
5 CA Los Angeles 79,873
6 OH Cincinnati 78,975
7 TX Dallas 75,924
8 IN Indianapolis 75,845
9 AZ Phoenix 74,154
10 CA San Diego 70,483


Here it is by metro.
1. Los Angeles - 521,400
2. Chicago - 409,500
3. New York - 357,600
4. Dallas - 251,100
5. Houston - 230,200
6. Detroit - 204,500
7. Boston - 201,400**
8. Philadelphia - 183,000
9. Seattle - 180,700
10. Minneapolis - 175,200

I could post more but Dallas and Houston are two of the top manufacturing cities in the nation.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,530 posts, read 10,134,238 times
Reputation: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_himself View Post
I hate the heat and the cold. Both suck, people have there preferences. However, I'd would rather deal with a long summer and beaches rather than a foot of snow outside my door and frozen pipes.
There are more Louisianans that live in urban areas and don't do outdoor activities as much as people probably do in New Hampshire. But why does NH come out to 190% and LA 104%?
You'd love LA or SF then!
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
13,093 posts, read 13,477,370 times
Reputation: 5766
Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_himself View Post
I hate the heat and the cold. Both suck, people have there preferences. However, I'd would rather deal with a long summer and beaches rather than a foot of snow outside my door and frozen pipes.
There are more Louisianans that live in urban areas and don't do outdoor activities as much as people probably do in New Hampshire. But why does NH come out to 190% and LA 104%?
A "foot of snow" on the ground is actually not that common in most of the North aside from parts of New England and around the lake effect snow regions, and even then conditions have to be right for it. There's a lot of hyperbole when it comes to describing weather depending on where people live.

And why would anyone have to deal with frozen pipes? It's easy enough to prevent.

The percentages, I don't believe were meant to equate to 100%, only that a certain % of the population took part those specific activities.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
13,093 posts, read 13,477,370 times
Reputation: 5766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
Are you excluding Texas? Here are the top manufacturing cities as of 2011.

http://manufacturersnews.com/news/ch...obsJan2012.pdf

1 TX Houston 235,038
2 NY New York 140,952
3 IL Chicago 107,264
4 MO St. Louis 80,795
5 CA Los Angeles 79,873
6 OH Cincinnati 78,975
7 TX Dallas 75,924
8 IN Indianapolis 75,845
9 AZ Phoenix 74,154
10 CA San Diego 70,483


Here it is by metro.
1. Los Angeles - 521,400
2. Chicago - 409,500
3. New York - 357,600
4. Dallas - 251,100
5. Houston - 230,200
6. Detroit - 204,500
7. Boston - 201,400**
8. Philadelphia - 183,000
9. Seattle - 180,700
10. Minneapolis - 175,200

I could post more but Dallas and Houston are two of the top manufacturing cities in the nation.
This really doesn't tell us anything. Larger, more populated cities are typically going to have larger numbers of people working in specific fields. There will be exceptions, but % of total workforce is a much better metric to find out where the true manufacturing areas are.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
13,093 posts, read 13,477,370 times
Reputation: 5766
Quote:
Originally Posted by west336 View Post
You'd love LA or SF then!
SF is actually chilly the closer you get to the coast, which is pretty much anywhere in the city itself. The Pacific is not a warm ocean that far north.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
18,627 posts, read 27,042,193 times
Reputation: 9576
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
This really doesn't tell us anything. Larger, more populated cities are typically going to have larger numbers of people working in specific fields. There will be exceptions, but % of total workforce is a much better metric to find out where the true manufacturing areas are.
Ok fine. From brookings.
Portland: 32%
San Jose: 29%
Indianapolis: 19.1%
Milwaukee: 16.5%
Rochester: 15.9%
New Orleans: 15.5%
Detroit: 15.3%
Louisville: 15.3%
Tulsa: 14.9%
Austin: 14.8%
Cleveland: 14.8%
Houston: 14.7%
Cincinnati: 14.5%
San Francisco: 13.6%
Dallas: 13.5%
Minneapolis: 12.5%
Seattle: 12.4%
Chicago: 12.1%
St. Louis: 12.1%
Charlotte: 12%
Los Angeles: 11.9%
Raleigh: 11.5%
Salt Lake City: 11.5%
Memphis: 11.1%
Nashville: 11.1%
Buffalo: 10.7%
Providence: 10.4%
San Diego: 10.3%
Boston: 9.8%
Phoenix: 9.8%
Pittsburgh: 9.8%
Birmingham: 9.4%
Omaha: 8.9%
Riverside: 8.9%
Richmond: 8.9%
Columbus: 8.7%
Kansas City: 8.5%
Virginia Beach: 8.2%
Philadelphia: 8%
Baltimore: 7%
Oklahoma City: 7%
San Antonio: 7%
Tampa: 6.6%
Denver: 6.2%
Des Moines: 5.8%
Jacksonville: 5.5%
Sacramento: 5.3%
New York: 4.5%
Orlando: 4.5%
Miami: 3.9%
Las Vegas: 3.2%
Washington DC: 2.3%
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