Only if one considers southeast to be synonymous with South. And it is NOT western (in the sense of having more culturally and historically in common with Colorado or Arizona than Tennessee or Alabama). If you disagree? Then present the evidence otherwise. Texas and Oklahoma are "western South" and the "western" part comes in that it was/is the western extension of the South itself, just in the same way, in an earlier era, Alabama and Tennessee were considered "Southwest".
Does the
same frontier era aspect dilute Kansas' "Midwesterness" to the point that it has more in common with Wyoming than with Iowa?
So again, tell why you disagree with my counter points...?
Soooo?
Louisiana has a strong French-Canadian culture (known as Cajun). And in south Florida, the same phenomenon is beyond question (although in this case it is mostly Cuban).
Yes, there are demographic changes going on in large urban areas of Texas...but they are relatively recent and
none are
remotely strong enough to overcome the absolute domination of Southern influence in the vast majority of the state; which are those my friend Bass&Catfish spelled out above, and which have been
repeatedly laid out before. (i.e. settlement patterns, linguistics, religious affiliation, etc).
And not only no telling how much is either illegal (Hispanic) or the result of northern and western migration for jobs only, but that
all that could change in a heartbeat, dependent on immigration policies or a radical change in the economy. On the other hand? The solidly entrenched and unchanging/inalterable fact is the permanence of the
anglo/black duality... which came from the southeast.
This is a factor that -- while not always hunky-dory in lots of ways -- not only bonds Texas to the South, but
totally separates it from the West (as defined by the Census Bureau). A sort of double-duality if you will.
To elaborate? In not a
single truly Western state do blacks make up anything at all as in a significant population. And in those areas where they
do? Well, it is almost exclusively confined to inner city areas in large west coast cities (especially Los Angeles...)
On the other hand? Texas has
By contrast? While there is a large black population as well in large Texas cities? It is almost always in neighborhoods that have developed a particular Southern feel and culture. And perhaps even
more to the point? Unlike
any state in the West, there is a
large property-owning, rural, and solidly native (from generations back), that bonds them to the soil history/culture of Texas/South, in a way that not only helped shape it, but still exists.
I hasten to add, PLEASE don't think I presume to speak for African Americans, anymore than I presume to speak for all white Texans. I am just saying this factor is a STRONG one, when it comes to placing Texas in a region...
Yes,
Climatically speaking,
west of the 100th Meridan, Texas (and Oklahoma) are generally more akin to the true Southwest (e.g. New Mexico and Arizona) than with the southeastern states. Just as climatically speaking, Kentucky and Virginia have more in common, respectively with Ohio and Pennsylvania. But that is not much of the state. The eastern two/thirds of Texas are either sub-humid, sub-tropical, or humid-subtropical. Here is a link and an excerpt:
The eastern two-thirds of Texas, on the other hand, has a humid, subtropical climate that is occasionally interrupted by intrusions of cold air from the north. Though variations in climate across Texas are considerable, they are nonetheless gradual.
WEATHER | The Handbook of Texas Online| Texas State Historical Association (TSHA)
In any event, while climate and topography will make for a good "region" with the National Weather Service, it has
very little to do with how states are grouped when it comes to shared history and culture -- which is the true and traditional yardstick -- in a way that offsets them from other states, which are in turn put into a separate region...and for good reason. So that comes back to the question asked earlier...(about shared history and culture.
Finally, there is the matter of self-identification with a region. And here is the -- spanning 7 years and 17,000 respondents -- that Bass&Catfish mentioned above!
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WHERE IS THE SOUTH?
The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.
Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.
It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.
--John Shelton Reed
Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)
Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)
West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)
Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)
Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)
West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)
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CHAPEL HILL Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and you're likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which dont can be endlessly debated.
Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia don't belong anymore, if they ever did.
Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.
Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.
"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureaus South, which doesnt make sense."
The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.
"Clearly some parts of Texas aren't Southern whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what the Southern states are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that youre in the South."
A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CHs Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.
"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you youre in the South as you're travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."
Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.
"That's because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."
The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.
"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there weren't born there," he said. "In fact, most of them weren't born in the South, much less in Florida."
Because of the South's growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.
"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why I'm glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but haven't been able to before."
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To sum it up -- no disrespect intended, as you at least articulate your position well -- I often get the impression you are just tooling around and/or wanting to get a "reaction" out of people. Lots of the reason I say that, is because -- again -- so many of yours posts contradict each other...
Oh yeah...before signing off...please
specifically lay out the reasons Delaware and Maryland are "more Southern than Texas and Oklahoma! LOL
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