The future of Ukraine (life, 2015, country, place)

[erasure]

Originally Posted by DKM

The draft law says foreigners cannot buy agricultural land. You DO understand that part, don't you?

Yes, as much as I understand that nothing prevents foreigners to buy that land via *Ukrainian companies.*
At that, I am even more alarmed by the Chinese that are already expressing interest in such purchases than of the intentions of the Europeans.

I suggest educating yourself on the details of the current system and why it breeds corruption and inefficiency.

I don't have to, since Dubinsky ( who sits in the parliament and is well informed on all the pits of the potential "land sale" issue - the way the Rada is rushing to push it through now without any referendums) gives the excellent explanations to the public why it shouldn't be done.
And we are aware already who is trying to push this law through fast, since I already mentioned earlier that 50% of the new Rada/Ukrainian government are people tied directly to the IMF/Soros.

If you want a referendum on land fine,

Oh thank you for letting me have things my way))

but the only people who should vote on it are landholders.

Oh but that's not what Ukrainian constitution says. It doesn't say that Ukrainian land belongs to the "landowners," you see. It says that it belongs to the "people of Ukraine."

Non farmland owners should not impose their will on farmland owners. There is a reason why no other country blocks the sale of farmland.

Except for Israel may be.

But you never questioned why that would be a case, did you?


Besides, other countries experiences are really not relevant to Ukraine.
However Russian experience is, so Russians are doing the right things, when they describe to Ukrainians what happened to THEM because of all the changes.

Because really, it's one and the same people, in spite of all the American attempts to turn Ukraine into anti-Russian project.

[Alec Solano]

[grega94]

Originally Posted by erasure

Besides, other countries experiences are really not relevant to Ukraine.
However Russian experience is, so Russians are doing the right things, when they describe to Ukrainians what happened to THEM because of all the changes.

Because really, it's one and the same people, in spite of all the American attempts to turn Ukraine into anti-Russian project.

Didn't Ukraine face the same turmoil that Russia did in the 90s? What things did Russia experience that Ukraine didn't get to face and vice versa?

[recycled]

Originally Posted by grega94

Didn't Ukraine face the same turmoil that Russia did in the 90s? What things did Russia experience that Ukraine didn't get to face and vice versa?

I'm no expert, but I can name a couple of things. Russia had an islamic inspired rebellion in Chechnya to deal with for many years in late 90s & early 00s. Ukraine handed over all nuclear weapons from the ex-USSR in its territory to an international commission so they could be decommissioned & destroyed.

[DKM]

A newly elected government doesn't need to call a referendum on a matter they are voting on and campaigned on. The election was the referendum and it clearly says Yes to western orientation in political and economic matters. Putin - who's system survives on keeping Russians misinformed about the reasons the west is more prosperous - fights with military force and propaganda to prevent this from happening. Even today this occurs. Ukraine is discussed often by Russian media as a failure and a warning to Russians who want western style of government. Its harder to do this if Ukraine succeeds so anything that helps the country, such as the land reform, is presented as a nefarious plot by the west to be resisted. It's already bad enough that Ukrainians in the Donbas realize the rebellion against Ukraine was a mistake that dearly cost them economically.

[Scrat335]

Originally Posted by DKM

A newly elected government doesn't need to call a referendum on a matter they are voting on and campaigned on. The election was the referendum and it clearly says Yes to western orientation in political and economic matters. Putin - who's system survives on keeping Russians misinformed about the reasons the west is more prosperous - fights with military force and propaganda to prevent this from happening. Even today this occurs. Ukraine is discussed often by Russian media as a failure and a warning to Russians who want western style of government. Its harder to do this if Ukraine succeeds so anything that helps the country, such as the land reform, is presented as a nefarious plot by the west to be resisted. It's already bad enough that Ukrainians in the Donbas realize the rebellion against Ukraine was a mistake that dearly cost them economically.

I have no doubt you're being paid. That's the only way you can sleep at night isn't it? Boiler plate crap propaganda like this only comes from people who are professionals and educated in it. In

[DKM]

Originally Posted by Scrat335

I have no doubt you're being paid. That's the only way you can sleep at night isn't it? Boiler plate crap propaganda like this only comes from people who are professionals and educated in it. In

Thank you, I take that as a compliment. Soros indeed signs my checks.

[Scrat335]

Originally Posted by DKM

Thank you, I take that as a compliment. Soros indeed signs my checks.

I don't believe you. You sit in a dark corner basement of Minitrue (the Pentagon) in a cubicle right next to the memory hole going to the furnace in the subbasement. Me and other taxpayers are who pay you. And its a waste.


You only think along one line, from one view, regardless of history or even common sense. You're utterly ignorant and I think it's a willful ignorance. How in the world will Ukrainian people benefit from having their land sold?

The people who live out on those lands will become slaves to the state. Dependents of the state. Look at Colonial history, what you will find is whole peoples enslaved by corporations and states. Did you ever study the dynamic of the the barbarian hordes and "civilized" people? The people who lived in the hills and those who lived in the valleys?

Did you ever wonder why the the Germanic tribes fought the Romans so long and so hard?

Some Ukrainians will benefit from this. They'll become fabulously wealthy and so will foreigners. Most will end up with a lifetime of drudgery on the hamster wheel of the western lifestyle. If they're lucky.

[DKM]

All Ukrainians will benefit from this. As the farms become more productive, revenue to the farmers and the state will go up. Wages will increase in rural areas as labor demand increases. Food prices will have downward pressures as supply increases. Where is the downside. Its not slavery to give rural Ukrainian farmers property rights (that they lost under Lenin). You're arguing the grass is blue and the sky is green. Its bad for Russia who competes with Ukraine for grain exports.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by grega94

Didn't Ukraine face the same turmoil that Russia did in the 90s? What things did Russia experience that Ukraine didn't get to face and vice versa?

Grega, I don't know much about Ukraine of the 90ies - what was going on there exactly.

I can only guess and judge somewhat by what I've been discovering lately, in connection with the latest events.

What it looks like,"Russia proper" has been hit by all kinds of "western reformers" much harder that Ukraine.
Which is understandable, since

a.) "Russia proper" is much richer when it comes to the natural resources (and that's what the foreign corporations were interested in first of all - to have an unfettered access to it,)
and b.)
In order to have access to it, Soviet laws calling for protection of natural resources by the state, (along with the social security net for the general population) had to be smashed, in order for corporations to squeeze money out of the country in the most efficient way.

And that's where the "Harvard specialists" promoting the neo-liberal reforms in Russia come into picture.
( In the light of the latest Bidengate in Ukraine, I have to mention that "Harvard specialists" ( and not only) were enriching themselves in the process, stuffing their pockets in the same manner like Biden's son, with clear conflict of interests. And at the end, when all was said and done, few of them went on trial back in the US. Was it jail sentence handed to them or fines to the tune of millions of dollars -that I don't remember already, but Ruth might.)
In Ukraine, as I discover now with big surprise for example, the Soviet laws still govern the protection of labor - i.e. it's not easy to fire people. And in the Eastern part of the country at least, the Soviet monuments were still standing, which means the socialist ideology was not challenged that much, as it was targeted in "Russia proper" by the neo-liberals of all kinds.

And thus when Russians are telling to Ukrainians now that "you being targeted by Americans are going through the same process that we experienced back in the 90ies" and warning them of the consequences, makes me think that in Ukraine the neo-liberal reforms ( that have been pushed on them by the IMF with the more vigor lately,) have been delayed somewhat comparably to "Russia proper."

At that, while I was already pointing earlier at the Democrats as the culprit behind the Russia's events/fiasco of the 90ies ( mainly because such neo-liberals as Clintons were in charge at that time,) now in case of Ukraine, when Democrats are swarming all over the place, it's even more clear.

Plus the war hawks of course - someone like Kurt Volker who comes from McCain's camp, AND (surprise-surprise) Volker is employed by the same BGR Group, whose client produces the Javelins.
The very Javelins, that US keeps on supplying to Ukraine.

"Volker, Trump's special representative for Ukraine negotiations, has mostly stayed under the radar since taking the job in 2017. But his unusual arrangement in the position is attracting new attention amid revelations of his central role in the ongoing Ukraine saga.
An unpaid volunteer, Volker spends most of his time engaged in outside projects, including his work at a Washington lobbying firm that continued to represent the government of Ukraine for almost two years after Volker started as special envoy...

Still, the State Department declined to elaborate on what steps Volker and the department’s lawyers took to avoid conflicts, or to say how much time Volker spends working for the government and whether the State Department feels a part-time Ukraine envoy is sufficient given escalating tensions with Russia.
The State Department also would not comment on why Volker’s official biography says he “previously served” at BGR Group. Volker’s bio on the State Department website does not mention he’s still actively employed by BGR Group...

Massachusetts-based Raytheon makes the Javelin missiles in partnership with Lockheed Martin. Raytheon is also a client of BGR Group, which lobbied for the defense contractor on “defense appropriations and authorizations” for more than a decade. Senate records show Raytheon paid BGR Group about $120,000 per year until ending the contract at the end of 2018.
BGR Group would not say what accounts Volker works on or whether any firewall was set up to ensure no overlap between the group’s work for the government of Ukraine and Volker’s work as the U.S. special representative. Jeff Birnbaum, president of BGR Public Relations, said the firm had no comment."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tru...-role-n1058871

You make your own conclusions.