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Of course these LNR towns are "devoid of normal life," since THIS IS A WAR ZONE, the disputed territories, even if they didn't see the military action per se..
The economy is depressed there, a lot of people left, since there is no certainty what's going to happen to them tomorrow.
Crimea ( whose future is certain and protected by Russia) is booming.
Of course these LNR towns are "devoid of normal life," since THIS IS A WAR ZONE, the disputed territories, even if they didn't see the military action per se..
The economy is depressed there, a lot of people left, since there is no certainty what's going to happen to them tomorrow.
Crimea ( whose future is certain and protected by Russia) is booming.
Donbass is a whole different story.
Been a while since you agreed with me. There may be hope yet...
OK, first of all, let me repost this from the Politics forum since this is important to keep in mind, before I'll get to the latest developments, addressing the preliminary agreement that Zelensky signed lately on Donbass and what this "Steinmeier formula" potentially means. ( That poor Frank Walter has hiccups probably every time now his name is mentioned.)
But first thing first - I came across this speech of Oleg Voloshin recently in one of Ukrainian TV shows. ( Never heard of him before.)
So I'll re-post it here from another thread ( hopefully in more readable shrift
"..So we are talking here about the recent meeting between V.A Zelensky and Donald Trump. On one hand we are pleased that Ukraine is much talked about, on another hand – is it the kind of recognition we were looking for? So talking about impeachment and all… did you have a chance to go through the whole transcript of their conversation?
Well yes… Good evening everyone. All this would be so funny as they say, if it were not so sad. Because I’ve had such a period in my life back in 2017, when my phone was literally red from ringing off the hook because yes, I worked in the ministry of the international affairs back in 2010 and 2013, I dealt with Mr. Manafort personally from time to time, and when the story on him was unfolding in certain direction, only the laziest American journalist wouldn’t call me with all kind of questions, up to “What does Mr. Manafort prefer to drink – tea or coffee?†And now everything is going in the opposite direction; today for example I received the call from the “Washington Times†and Wall Street Journal and god knows who else. Because the boomerang is flying in the opposite direction now. So “Ukraine†today is a key word for American politicians. Even the American rednecks that have no clue where Ukraine is on the world map has heard about it, because.. this is no joke – the impeachment procedure was not in place since the nineties, the Clintons’ times. Even during so-called “Russian interference in the elections†things didn’t come to impeachment. And here – just a telephone conversation and we are talking about the impeachment. The problem of course is much deeper. What we see here, what we are going through is a second part of drama, that started - and here I am going to be very honest – which started with interference of Poroshenko administration into the election process of the United States on Hillary Clinton side. If not for this, if not for Mr. Biden, who… in such obnoxious manner ( I don’t have any other words for it, as the citizen of my country. So if he wouldn’t be bragging in such obnoxious manner that he can remove the Prosecutors general here as he is pleased… Well I am sorry we’ve heard here the transcript of the conversation between Mr. Trump and Mr. Zelensky… You can’t see any blackmailing there. You won’t hear “You do this and I will do that.†Of course you can come up with something far-fetched as “come to the White House†but this would be normal for two presidents who never met yet. Meanwhile Mr. Biden… You don’t need to publish any transcripts here. I’d like to see certain transcripts here – I’d love to see them published. With Mrs. Nuland for example.. One of president Poroshenko’s advisors told me that during some of her conversations with Poroshenko she was treating him as the president of some banana republic. And so on. So all this Democratic camarilla was getting into our affairs with their hands and legs. Mr Biden is telling that he came here 11 times, and during all his visits to Kiev he didn’t notice that his son was involved in business here? Who will believe in that? Imagine for a second that they’ve switched places and our Privat Bank (or any other company that has.. problems, gets Trump’s son – Donald Junior as one of the directors of its board. I imagine that Democrats and all the liberal media would go bezerk, incinerating them. And here Biden is quoting himself … “son of the *****†and states out in the open that he was blackmailing Ukrainian government officials with IMF money. This is a clear fact of interference into internal politics of Ukraine – that’s number one, ( voice from a different participant “The US were guaranting this loan..â€
Voloshin “yes, but still – what is this; “I am leaving in 6 hours, you won’t get money... Where do you see anything like this in Trump’s actions?†More than that, I am pleased that... we all know I assume that Vladimir Zelensky is not a pro when it comes to diplomacy, so I am pleased the way Zelensky handled the conversation. If he flatters Trump – so what? When Poroshenko was talking to Trump, he was congratulating him with the victory of his favorite baseball team, and told him what a great leader he is... After that we’ve started buying coal from Pennsylvania for enormous price, we started buying diesel locomotives, and why did it happen? Only to fix the wrong step that Poroshenko, Chalyi and the rest made back in 2016, by getting involved into American election. Today “The Hill†published an article, where they say that the election of 2016 was indirect conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Only Russia was supporting one side, while Ukraine was supporting the other. These explanations don’t make me happy, because I think Russia felt sorry already hundred times, the price they had to pay for all these e-mails and so on, but at least the ambassador Kislyak was not giving personally the directions in his embassy to gather the compromising material on Hillary Clinton, or John Podesta as the chairman of her presidential campaign. But Mr. Chalyi (and it was confirmed by his subordinate Tilizhenko)… I think he needs to be more exposed to the public via media, and he is ready for that.. So he is saying that Mr. Chalyi gave him a command to gather the compromising material on Paul Manafort. More than that, Chalyihimslef confirmed this spring that some Irena Chalupa, the member of the National Democratic convention was asking him to help to gather this compromising material. She is not denying it, but she is saying that “Yes I did it, because I am a Ukrainian, and my heart is aching that Trump will be playing in Moscow’s hands..†but whatever, the fact remains; if anyone wanted the “collusion†- here the collusion for you, collusion between the Democrats and Poroshenko Administration. So now I literally feel sorry for Zelensky, because he inherited the problem, that our previous president created for him. ..
So me being a person who likes Trump and the kind of changes he brings in international politics..
I am glad that Zelensky took such reasonable position, that he gave the correct assessment to the role of ( ambassador) Iovanovich during the election.. Anyone who is involved into diplomatic work is aware that Jovanovich liked Poroshenko and that she was covering him up. And what’s more important – if Americans are such great fighters with corruption, where is a single closed offshore account of Poroshenko? Or of Semerchuk? Where is even the slightest pressure on our officials that keep money abroad? So they were willing to threaten us with IMF loans, but to threaten the offshore accounts to fight this corruption – not a pipsqueak. And so they claim that they wanted “to fight the corruption†by firing Shokin, when they could do it the other way? No, they fired him most likely because he was investigating Burisma, where Biden’s son was sitting on directors board. So this is a clearcut conflict of interests. The man who made his career ( his adviser Larry Silverman was telling me that “my boss Biden made a career on honesty and fight with corruption, human rights.. So where is this honesty, when your own son is making business here, and you pretend that you don’t notice it? I don’t understand it."
Of course these LNR towns are "devoid of normal life," since THIS IS A WAR ZONE, the disputed territories, even if they didn't see the military action per se..
The economy is depressed there, a lot of people left, since there is no certainty what's going to happen to them tomorrow.
Crimea ( whose future is certain and protected by Russia) is booming.
Donbass is a whole different story.
Here the question is different .. And who brought them to this? Donbass has been a part of Ukraine for more than 20 years .. But the Ukrainian government for all this time did not spend any significant funds there on the development of the region, but only pumped out resources .. How can one not become depressed in such a situation..
^
Sorry shrift is not working out as intended in this forum's formatting, but anyways..
First of all, it becomes obvious that in Ukrainian ( as much as in Russian understanding) "corruption" has somewhat different meaning comparably to Western understanding.
To Ukrainians ( as much as for Russians) the root of corruption means first of all the ability of the rich people ( be that oligarchs, government officials and the rest) to move money outside of the country and place it on foreign accounts, offshore accounts in particular.
While the West ( that insists on "fighting corruption" in Ukraine) doesn't see any problem with it.
And here comes the big dissonance that is going to affect Zelensky presidency as much as the presidency of Poroshenko before him.
Now moving on Donbass issue, and "Steinmeier formula," that Zelensky recently signed.
If he signed the preliminary document (as Moscow insisted before proceeding to Minsk meeting ( with participation of France and Germany)) AND in the form that Moscow insisted, that means victory for Putin's plans and Ukraine's concession.
Because the way Moscow wanted it all along was to hold the election in Donbass, where the citizens of it would choose their own government, then Ukraine would change its constitution to grant Donbass a special status, give the amnesty to all combatants, and THEN Ukraine would be allowed to take charge of Ukranian-Russian border.
This way ( according to Moscow plan) Ukraine would have two subjects ( two republics) influencing the internal Ukrainian politics, ( not to mention the influence of these two spreading to the rest of the Russian-speaking South-East.)
Ukraine on another hand is already having the protesters from the Western part of the country ( the Nationalists) rallying in Kiev against this development, since they consider ti a threat the unity of Ukraine.
However, as I've already said before, there was never "unity" in Ukraine to begin with, and that's where the problem is;"Ukraine" consists of the leftovers of two different Empires - the Russian one in the East and Austro-Hungarian in the West, with all the dire consequences.
Now when it comes to Donbass...
I would like to see what options will they have ( if they have them) on the ballot.
Will they have an option to join Russia or Ukraine?
Will they have an option to stay independent?
It's important to mention, that while a lot of Donbassians don't see their future as part of Ukraine any longer for obvious reasons, part of them consider Putin as a traitor already as well ( as much as people of the South-Eastern Ukraine.)
And after so much spilled blood and their hopes to be united with Russia, if the only option they'll have is to be shoved back in Ukraine ( the way it serves Putin's purpose) - I am not quite sure what is going to happen at this point, so more info is needed.
Here the question is different .. And who brought them to this? Donbass has been a part of Ukraine for more than 20 years .. But the Ukrainian government for all this time did not spend any significant funds there on the development of the region, but only pumped out resources .. How can one not become depressed in such a situation..
You mean what brought them to this current situation, where they look like ghost towns?
Why, the war of course.
We all saw how the new puppet government in Kiev treated them as the potential enemies from the get-go, how the Ukrainian army with the orders from Kiev acted like occupational force, shooting civilians on the streets, how the locals were trying to stop the tanks with their bare hands.
I remember it all.
And how Putin betrayed them.
So of course these areas look like "ghost towns" now - abandoned and decaying.
Here the question is different .. And who brought them to this? Donbass has been a part of Ukraine for more than 20 years .. But the Ukrainian government for all this time did not spend any significant funds there on the development of the region, but only pumped out resources .. How can one not become depressed in such a situation..
You're thinking of Crimea Ziggy. Crimea was starved of investment and it was neglected by Ukraine. I know, I've been there multiple times and saw it. Its not a surprise at all they are happy to be Russia now.
Donbass was doing pretty well by comparison. The highest wages in Ukraine, some investments in Donetsk etc. Corruption too but the place was doing relatively well, especially compared to Southern Ukraine. The people left there are absolutely miserable with the situation. And Erasure is right again, a large part of the local population who stayed were pinning hopes on Russian annexation and Crimean style revival and that didn't come so they are feeling a bit betrayed by Russia.
And I'm curious if one of the options they will get in the votes is to leave Ukraine. I hope it is.
yes a fascist state just overwhelmingly elected a Russian speaking Jew to be their president. Because fasicsts love both. And the fact that fascists are currently protesting these moves, well that's just a fake protest to hide their true intent, am I right? Its hard to keep up with Russian nonsense so forgive me for missing something. The only denazification occurring in Ukraine is every time a nazi Russian idiot is killed in Donetsk.
Oh phleease DKM - we know that the percentage of people voting for a "Russian speaking Jew" was only 30-40% ( and mostly in the South-Eastern part of the country, which is more international,) but whopping 75% were simply voting AGAINST Poroshenko.
That investigative journalist turned MP is Jewish too, and I see how many insults are hurled at him in the comments just for being a Jew ( along with support and admiration that people express for him.)
But he a gutsy guy, culturally very Russian and another day he showed up in his video wearing kipa ( or whatever those small hats are called,) to show his *f. you." attitude to haters.
And I hear a lot of alarming news from him coming from the parliament.
On land reform, on inability of the new government to prosecute the corrupt officials, on encroaching of Poroshenko people all over the place ( including latest mulling on Yatzenuk for P.M.)
So yeah...
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