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To begin with - what he SHOULDN'T have done, was to open his big mouth and make this infamous speech;
" We are not going to fight with Ukrainian people. Listen closely, I want you to understand me very clearly. If we'll make this decision, we'll make it only for protection of Ukrainian citizens, and let anyone from the military personnel dares to shoot at its own people. Let them try to shoot at women and children; we'll be standing behind them. I want to see anyone who'd give such order in Ukraine."
And then we saw it all - the killed women and children, the burning houses, and Putin?
Uh-m.
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Another frozen situation like in Georgia, recognition only by Russia??
And?
When Putin sees the "geopolitically-strategic point," such as the seaport or the vicinity of vital oil/gas pipe ( as it's a case in Abkhazia or South Ossetia) he has no reservations. But Donbass was all about protecting people. No "strategic bonuses."
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A Crimea-like referendum and joining Russia??
They DID have referendum in Donbass already 2-3 years ago ( unapproved by Putin.)
They DID vote to be included in Russia.
And that's what Zakhar(chenko) was asking for out in the open before his death.
"We can't be "occupied" by Russia. We want to be part of Russia. We already voted for it."
Russia does support Donbass and its residents can get Russian citizenship...that is serious help.
Russia ( or rather Putin) USES Donbass for his geopolitical games, and only when the scenario was not going his way for too long, he started offering Russian passports to Donbassians for god knows what purpose. ( Who can use "Russian citizenship" now, when pushing Donbass in Ukraine is back on the table?)
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The general direction where this thing is going is the best outcome....a significant autonomy with strong rights protection to prevent a potential Poroshenko-like or Saakashvili-like Russophobic buffoon to get strange ideas next time.
And who said that these buffoons are gone? Gone where?
Who can guarantee that tomorrow the Nationalists of Azov type will not disregard any "constitutional changes" and will not march on Donbass? Or that they will not start arresting people right and left for "separatism?" Who can coexist in the same state with the bozos in military uniforms?
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A splitting of Ukraine along the Dnieper river (and including Odessa) would have been the best outcome....it could still happen in the far future
Why it didn't happen so far, did you ever ask yourself?
I hope they have these choices in their vote. I'm not sure what else they would vote on. It should be about their relationship to Ukraine. I just don't see how being a mini-statelet is possible.
Putin seems very intent to shove them back. Most Ukrainians would rather the Donbas leaves totally or come back but without any special status. Or at least no status to tell the rest of them what to do. I imagine they have some work to figure out how all this is voted on, since multiple options will require a runoff vote. I hope they choose to leave because it seems the locals would fit in more with the Eurasian Russia than a democratic Europe. It all seems surreal but I hope it works out.
In all honesty I don't see where/how the bleating idiots from Western part of Ukraine fit into "democratic Europe." If they do, that must be Europe of 3rd century BC.
"Russia proper" looks far more civilized and European comparably to these wild hordes with their torches.
Their so-called "politicians" are equally obtuse when it comes to diplomacy and negotiations.
I think that the French, the Germans ( and the rest) observed them in official settings already enough ( comparably to Russians) to come quietly to their own conclusions.
So when it comes to Donbass...
I really have to think about that one, what scenario would be the best decision under the circumstances.
They DID have referendum in Donbass already 2-3 years ago ( unapproved by Putin.)
They DID vote to be included in Russia.
And that's what Zakhar(chenko) was asking for out in the open before his death.
"We can't be "occupied" by Russia. We want to be part of Russia. We already voted for it."
I did not know about the referendum...after all Putin is a realpolitik SOB...Crimea was very strategic and he decided that taking the heat was worth it, for Donbass evidently not.
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And who said that these buffoons are gone? Gone where?
Who can guarantee that tomorrow the Nationalists of Azov type will not disregard any "constitutional changes" and will not march on Donbass? Or that they will not start arresting people right and left for "separatism?" Who can coexist in the same state with the bozos in military uniforms?
Well a constitutional protection can offer a better pretext to intervene should a clown like that arise to power again....
Furthermore, a significant autonomy, if crafted carefully, can make Donbass de-facto integrated with Russia economically even if nominally part of Ukraine
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Why it didn't happen so far, did you ever ask yourself?
yes a fascist state just overwhelmingly elected a Russian speaking Jew to be their president. Because fasicsts love both. And the fact that fascists are currently protesting these moves, well that's just a fake protest to hide their true intent, am I right? Its hard to keep up with Russian nonsense so forgive me for missing something. The only denazification occurring in Ukraine is every time a nazi Russian idiot is killed in Donetsk.
As usual, sway away tactics, I don't expect anything less from you. So, any comment on the link?
You know, I will keep asking this question - because you never will answer. Any your answer will show that you are either non-stop liar or nazi yourself. Banderovetz?
Russia is the 6th largest economy in the world by PPP (2018 data) Ukraine is what?? 50th??
Not only that, the Ukrainian economy will be probably increasingly made up of foreign firms that just produce stuff in the country taking advantage of low wages and own the local national resources...an economy totally in the hands of foreigners and potentially very volatile....
Truly sad for what it was one of the most advanced of the Soviet Republics.
Listen to Putin himself talking about the status of the Ukraine economy....
Shipbuilding gone, aviation gone, rocketry ans space technology gone....good job, keep it up!!
I rebutted your argument of Ukraine being in a depression using the GDP PPP as you demanded. Now you are moving on to Russia this and that. Okay yes Russia has a lot more money than Ukraine, big surprise with all the resources they sell to the West and China. However their economy is definitely not growing as fast as Ukraine's since 2015.
And now you expect me to take what Putin said about Ukraine to be worth anything? Is he a trained neutral economist? Or is he throwing shade on the "brother" nation which rejected him. Since Ukraine is still building planes, ships and rocket engines its hard to take Putin seriously when he claims they don't. Alternate facts?
As usual, sway away tactics, I don't expect anything less from you. So, any comment on the link?
You know, I will keep asking this question - because you never will answer. Any your answer will show that you are either non-stop liar or nazi yourself. Banderovetz?
A few dozen idiots in the forest means the whole country is like that? I don't need to dignify your cheap attacks with a response.
A few dozen idiots in the forest means the whole country is like that? I don't need to dignify your cheap attacks with a response.
Still trying damage control? Nope, you can't get away by calling nazis "idiots". In any other country they will go jail, except when the government is just like them. And no, they are not just few dozen. They and like them are very much widespread. Yes, including the former pres Poroshenko.
Not all country is like that - Donbass is a proof. Just like not all Germans were Nazis. But that does not take away the fact that Ukraine is fascist state right now.
Of course you try to whitewash Ukraine fascists by saying they are not. Nope, not gonna work. Facts are there, and there are way too many of them.
As for the topic header: no, Ukraine has no future. It died on May 2 2014.
Hmmm. Forums have revived the Internet and not only . I think something's coming, something's happening .It is called "another shuher"(Shuher) I do not know in English, in other matters, and Google translator too. What do you think?" Coming?
Hmmm. Forums have revived the Internet and not only . I think something's coming, something's happening .It is called "another shuher"(Shuher) I do not know in English, in other matters, and Google translator too. What do you think?" Coming?
Yeah I was just going to say why are all the Russians hitting the Ukraine forum after a longish break? Seems something is up... I thought they were good with the progress on the peace talks but maybe not? Or its just part of the warm up for what's ahead.
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