The future of Ukraine (cost, jobs, people, German)

[DontH8Me]

Originally Posted by erasure

I'd say each and every accusation here was applicable in the case of Donbass.

But the "free and democratic world" was amazingly silent back then.



The question is why.

Because even a pimple-faced teenager can recognize an illegal land grab behind a false flag activity. You can stop asking now.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by euro123

If I tell you earth is flat then what?

Then you would imply that I am making things up, but I don't.

I probably simply know more on a subject.

Putin's words were that for 8 years all their attempts have failed, well can't you just assassinate the politicians and install the ones who will run an unbiased referendum to decide the fate of Crimea and others since even UN polling agrees they wanted independence? It's not easy but a better option...

Whaaa???

It's one thing to kill an Ukrainian politician who is willingly committing crimes in Donbas, completely different to bomb the whole country...

There was a much bigger problem than just "one politician committing crimes in Donbass," and that's what I observed within the last seven years, but first - why I even got into "Ukrainian affairs" in the first place.


Basically, you can blame Ruth for Truth for that, now that I think about it ...
She was the one that mentioned the "Yabloko" party in Russia, and since I was familiar with them, I went to check on how they were doing, since according to my background that's the party I would have normally affiliate myself if still residing in Moscow.

So I found their forum and all, discussed some of their leader's articles/interview here on PBS, and shortly after that this Maidan in Kiev happened.

I watched it ( along with all Americans) and had a vague idea what the political/economic background of Ukraine was at that point, since as I already mentioned I had no particular interest in the area.

The Yabloko people were cheering the event, but I've noticed something troubling there, while watching Ukrainian events on Youtube.

Once I saw some young guy entering some bank, and right after he came out, a gang of other youth came up to him, pulled his jacked off, threw it on the ground and spray-painted it. ( It was a nice red jacket I remember, and being a mother of a kid of this age myself, I was going like... )
Then they talked to him ( as it turned out they were "teaching him a lesson of not using the Russian banks ever,") and left, while he was just standing there, looking at his jacket.
What the hell I thought to myself, what's going on and who these youngsters think they are?

And that's when for the first time I've learned about Ukrainian nationalists, the "Right Sector" and so on.

So I pointed at that at my Yabloko forum, that THIS can't be a good thing, and after few arguments back and forth, my democratic party banned me.
But from that point on I was already hooked, looking into Ukrainian events, and step by step knowing NOTHING about that country ( after it was separated from Russia for 30 years,) I became totally fascinated by it in political/cultural scene.

I was watching their bloggers, their politicians, their TV programs ( Zelensky's show including, used to love it BTW,) I followed the events in Donbass ( Eastern Ukraine actually) from their perspective ( and the Russian one,) talked to people who were involved with all kinds of help there, talked to Eastern Ukrainians themselves, and on and on.

So you get the idea.

While I found Russian political field to be pretty sanitized and boring, Ukraine was actually extremely interesting place in this respect, and Eastern Ukrainians were coming across as more Russians than the Russians from the "Russia proper" ( I am talking first of all the Moscovites of course.)

So all THIS might give a better idea to you now why I always have an answers to the questions often posed here, because now when I think about it, Ukraine was something I was observing closely these last seven-eight years, inside and out.

My detailed knowledge of it is actually better than of "Russia proper" that shouldn't be a case, but it is.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by DontH8Me

Oh good, so the Russians are killing their own now. Thanks for informing - I hope they get some more.

They do, and many of them ( both on Russian and Ukrainian side) perceive things this way.

That the West set them up to fight each other for its own interests, "to the last Ukrainian."


You are welcome.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by DontH8Me

Because even a pimple-faced teenager can recognize an illegal land grab behind a false flag activity. You can stop asking now.

What "illegal land grab" are you talking about?
The only illegal thing in that situation was the overthrowing of the democratically-elected president, that that part of the country was overwhelmingly voting for, so reaction has followed.

[Veritas Vincit]

It's going to be interesting to see what's next in Ukraine, which is of course the actual subject of this thread. It looks like we can pretty much forget about the idea of a Russian victory in the course of a couple of weeks. It's difficult to get a strategic picture because most of the info isn't from neutral observers but from the involved parties themselves. The longer the conflict gets drawn out the riskier it is for Putin of course.


On the flip side, there is also zero indication that Ukraine can actually successfully remove the Russian troops from their territory any time soon. The Ukrainians appear to be in 'survival' mode for the most part. This is not unimportant for the Russian military presence in Ukraine does provide Russia with leverage in any negotiated settlement. People often forget this because it's an uncomfortable fact of life that, barring the existence of effective law enforcement, violence or the threat of violence often provides a significant advantage.



The West won't intervene militarily, for obvious reasons, and looking at the weaponry being delivered, it's not the kind of weaponry that would enable a powerful offensive. So even if Ukraine's government can prevent a Russian victory, which they can quite easily simply by not falling into Russian hands and still existing as a functioning entity, they are also not likely to be able to win it outright.



It seems their and the West's only play here is to turn Ukraine into a meat grinder for the Russian army in the hope that Russia's elites will turn on Putin and remove him. Of course, that would also turn Ukraine into a meat grinder for the Ukrainian population with devastating effects, both in the short and long term.

[euro123]

Originally Posted by erasure

You go on a great length to excuse the murder of civilians and children...no one really cares about 15 years old neonazis spraying the jacket of some Russian. It's obviously becoming impossible for you and other people supporting the Putin regime to find a justification as of today. You better find some credible evidence suggesting all of this is just ukrainians in russian uniforms or so on because it's god damn impossible as of now.

[DontH8Me]

Originally Posted by erasure

What "illegal land grab" are you talking about?
The only illegal thing in that situation was the overthrowing of the democratically-elected president, that that part of the country was overwhelmingly voting for, so reaction has followed.

I'm immune and mildly amused that you keep saying this for the last seven years. Maybe in another seven years of shrill copying and pasting, someone will be convinced. Your talking points are trite and straight from the Russian state held "news" source's narrative. Maybe try to mix it up a little now and then, or are you not allowed to go off-script?

[erasure]

Originally Posted by RememberMee

Russian nazi thugs - occupiers fire weapons to intimidate a crowd of Ukrainian civilian protesters. It is just a matter of time they will start shooting at civilian crowds if not yet. Melitopol.

https://youtu.be/J_Yo8Uhe6Dw

Same city today.
After the crowd calmed down, it looks like Russians are distributing the humanitarian aid today;



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvNuMmnzZ0Y


( As I've said - I don't like to read the propaganda sites - I prefer to go and see/hear what the locals are saying.)

[RememberMee]

Vlad has a clear colonization objective of wiping out Ukrainian statehood, identity, language, everything that stands in the way of partition and Belarus II. Obviously, Russian filtration camps, torture chambers, murder and unmarked mass graves will come little bit after Russian nazi troopers secured the area. You cannot subjugate and colonize people without that. Russian nazis will fully employ local thugs and psychos to do the dirty jobs, just like in Donbas. It will cost Ukraine dearly but lots of nazi troopers will die for the bunker dwelling rat and Russian imperialist manias. Hopefully Russian nazi thugs and that third rate wannabe global dominator will choke on Ukraine.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by RememberMee

Vlad has a clear colonization objective of wiping out Ukrainian statehood, identity, language, everything that stands in the way of partition and Belarus II. Obviously, Russian filtration camps, torture chambers, murder and unmarked mass graves will come little bit after Russian nazi troopers secured the area. You cannot subjugate and colonize people without that. Russian nazis will fully employ local thugs and psychos to do the dirty jobs, just like in Donbas. It will cost Ukraine dearly but lots of nazi troopers will die for the bunker dwelling rat and Russian imperialist manias. Hopefully Russian nazi thugs and that third rate wannabe global dominator will choke on Ukraine.

That's precisely what I saw happening when the Ukrainian Nationalists came to the South-Eastern Ukraine, and started enforcing "the language, identity" and the rest.