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Parts of a country separating is not a new concept, the USSR broke apart and no one was screaming about how are the new countries going to support themselves.
Yes. And in fact that decision was very controversial. Or even wrong. But do we need more separation? I still think that the conflict between regions isn't so large (it's large in economics, but even here the separatists, I'm afraid, can't improve the situation), in culture and in language it's not so large (difference between Romanian and Russian languages is big, while difference between Russian and Ukrainian is quite small). So, it's even not the situation of Transnistria. While fuel it?
Besides, Poroshenko, despite being not very "clean" (as any rich man in that region) doesn't look as radical. We can talk with him.
I'm upset that Ukrainian elite made such decision (to go not in our direction), but I doubt that these combatants can do something.
It's you ( as a Westerner) think first of all in terms of "investment" and "large-scale" trade. The "rebels" think first of all in terms of protecting their identity and their way of life. Now let me turn the table around and ask you hypothetically speaking - say Putin's Russia would love to take over Finland, talking about "great investments" and "large-scale trade" that it has in mind for Finland, provided that Russia had those money. Would it matter to you if Finland would have become Russia's province once again, if money for "large-scale trade" and "great investments" were coming from Moscow, not Sweden or any other European countries?
The only one who is taking over anything is Russia. They annexed Crimea with their soldiers. I've been following the Ukrainian crisis since December, and I've heard nothing that would threaten the "Eastern Ukrainian way of life". Except for that ridiculous language law - which was revoked in less than 12 hours.
Nobody and nothing west from the Dnepr is planning to invade or make anything a "province", so therefore your question is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Because when Poland has been "taken under the wing of IMF and EU," it was part of a plan of destruction of former Warsaw pact, the re-structuring of the post-cold war world, and decisions have been made what should be "changed and adjusted," and what should be completely destroyed ( not necessarily with bombs, right away, but what should be marked for potential destruction.) The rule of thumb what should be done here or there was basically the idea what would serve American interests of global domination and what wouldn't. Now Poland ( and other small Central/Eastern European countries) have been marked for "adjustment and restructuring," since being small countries, they could have been easily absorbed into EU's economy, plus old European countries still had space for cheap labor that Poland was going to supply there.
The EU can't take much under its wing, I'm afraid. The EU is collection of 28 countries that all have their own economies, policies and ideas. It's not a single entity which make evil plans to "take over" or "restructure" countries, because of two things. 1) They can't agree how to do it, 2) they don't have the means to do it. The EU is neither a violent expansionist entity that wants to crush Russia, or anything else. Quite the contrary, from 1991 to March 2014 it wanted to have good, sincere and friendly relationships with Russia. The EU or Russia, or EU vs Russia is something that simply does not exist.
Poland is not a small country, it's population is as large as Ukraine's. The EU gave ideas, loans and assistance, but the Polish people did everything themselves. The economy is growing all the time, the democracy is working, and in 2004 Poland was accepted as a EU member. Now it's the 6th largest country in the European Parliament. And being a part of the EU and NATO hasn't destroyed the Polish way of life in any way, as it hasn't destroyed in any other country either.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Now Ukraine was a different story. Number one - it's the biggest country in Europe, that couldn't have been absorbed into EU as easily as Poland, for reasons that it used to be part of the Soviet Union ( and unlike Poland, didn't have private sector, being part of central planning of Moscow.) This decline of population in Ukraine shows that interconnectedness with Russia, that the biggest number of deaths, decline of birth rates came after the destruction of the Soviet Union, as much as it was case in Russia.)
The population/culture is quite identical to Russian the further East you go ( as you can see now) and so on. It could have been smart of EU to include Western-most parts of Ukraine into EU already back then, the "separatist" sentiment was there, but Ukraine, apparently was a "long-term project," that couldn't have been dealt with right away ( too costly and too uncertain,) and thus has been postponed till later times.
And it still can't. Poland, the Baltics, CZ and Slovakia weren't "absorbed" either. They did everything by themselves, with assistance from established European democracies. If those countries could do it, why couldn't Ukraine? And the EU is in fact an exclusive club, and you can't just join in whenever you want. Estonia applied for membership in 1995 - and was allowed to join in 2004. Turkey applied in 1987 and is still nowhere near membership.
IF Ukraine remains as a single country, a possible membership is decades away. I think I said somewhere on the first pages of this thread that Ukraine might maybe become an EU member sometimes in 2035-2040.
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Originally Posted by erasure
So? Some Russians uphold the "nostalgic idea" of the Soviet Union, and they have their own reasons ( just look at demographic chart of Ukraine( and Russia.) And some uphold the idea of revival of Russia on purely nationalist ground, without the revival of the Soviet Union.
There's many in Europe having nostalgic ideas in Europe as well. Like Basque separatists, Scandinavian neo-nazis that want to unite the Nordic Countries to a pure white nuclear power, French Monarchists, Finnish Anarchists and so on. I call them naive and stupid.
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Originally Posted by erasure
"Globalized economy" works first of all in the US interests and those people in governments that shake hands with the US ( Putins' government including.) It doesn't work in Russian national interests. Why would a country so rich in natural resources and people's potential would be interested in "globalization?" Think about it.
This is infowars-material. USA don't control globalisation. This globalised world economy has hurt some nations who are best friends with the US, like Italy. Other countries, like China, has taken every advantage of the globalisation, regardless what the US thinks. The US is my country's 5th biggest trade partner, and oh how we have been hurt the last years, while we did great 10 years ago.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Not more than Kiev that relies on Ukrainian nationalists of "Pravy sector" to "reign."
Why should you keep your "hopes high?" For what exactly? That Eastern Ukrainians would realize how attractive a paradise that's created in your mind for them under the dominance of the EU and nationalist government in Kiev?
The Pravy Sektor has no political power in Ukraine, no matter if you believe it or not.
I don't know. I'm not rich at all, but I'm quite certain that most Ukrainians would like their country to have my standard of living and a functioning democracy.
The only one who is taking over anything is Russia. They annexed Crimea with their soldiers. I've been following the Ukrainian crisis since December, and I've heard nothing that would threaten the "Eastern Ukrainian way of life".
You did?
Then sure you can tell me what the terrorists that "reign with violence and terror" are saying to the local people of the city of Gorlovka that has been recently bombed by Kiev?
I'm not interested in propaganda and obscure youtube videos.
So come here, to Donetsk and see is it propaganda or not. I understand that living in Finland very easy to tell us, inhabitants of Donetsk region about terrorism and democracy, so maybe you should see it on your own?
Ukrainian militants massacred in the village of Lugansk
Punishers massively shot residents while they were in the village. This is not the first report of this kind, the last reports were from Krasniy Luch, where Junta troops raped and killed few women. Junta behaves on its own (as it believes) the territory as the German Nazi troops in the war not always behaved on occupied areas.
Last edited by Selena822; 06-15-2014 at 01:19 PM..
Ukrainian militants massacred in the village of Lugansk
Punishers massively shot residents while they were in the village. This is not the first report of this kind, the last reports were from Krasniy Luch, where Junta troops raped and killed few women. Junta behaves on its own (as it believes) the territory as the German Nazi troops in the war not always behaved on occupied areas.
That pictures was taken by Peter Turnley. 1995 in Grozny, Chechnya. It's not even summer in the picture
Ariete
The Ukrainian people and everyone who feels to be Ukrainian. From Lviv to Donetsk via Sevastopol.
I think it was more complex. There were a lot of people in the Eastern regions, who felt no empathy for Maidan (and still feel no empathy for it), but also no empathy for the former president. That's why the EU should work with them more actively.
A hint to all internet warriors: don't use used pictures that appear on the first page of the google search and can be traced within seconds. If there really is some war crimes going on, nobody will believe you when you flood message boards with fake pictures.
I don't know if the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf is familiar to you, but I suggest familiarising yourself with it.
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