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Ok, folks, here we go again.
Now, the Fascist neo-Nazi militias are threatening to overthrow the Poroshenko gov.
No surprise there really, as aint it exactly what these folks have a knack for doing?!
"They predict the government of President Petro Poroshenko may not last another three months."
Old news Mr G. There's not going to be another revolution in Ukraine, the US NATO has operatives all over that country and any person that dares to really stand out as a challenger is simply going to disappear. Terror is the rule. Period.
Travric.
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I think they are very committed to socialism and making it the best way they know how. Stems from their history back to the Revolution. They haven't renounced their 'principles' even if the Empire fell.
Have they??
I agree. But it goes back much further. I don't think they have renounced anything along the lines of their socialist nature. Why? Americans are socialists. Russians are socialists. Poles are socialists. HUMANS ARE SOCIALISTS. We always have been we always will be.
I think Russians are more social simply because of where they live and what their history has bestowed upon them.
Why fix it if it's not broken? There's nothing wrong with their way of doing things.
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Seems that to me. Flexing her muscles, going on about 'destiny', grabbing territory, beating her breasts with pride at the expense of her traditional foes, fostering patronize, shutting off information,
Blah bah I can go on but it would take pages.
All in all like all countries of the world Russia has a 'vision'. Compared to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness I think her actions are in direct opposition to her socialist ideals. She talks one way and dies another.
I think you're dead wrong. I don't see Russia imposing it's "vision" on anyone. They offered Ukraine a deal, they meddled a little which is nothing new for any side involved. They didn't force anyone into anything. Sadly for Ukraine and the west the same cannot be said.
As for flexing muscles you need to look at who you're dealing with. Europeans are the most blood thirsty lot humanity has ever seen. The line "War is the sport of kings" was not uttered by a Russian. Hiram Maxim who invented the Maxim machine gun so that Europeans could murder one another more efficiently was not Russian. Napoleon was not a Russian. Hitler was not a Russian. Andrew Jackson was not a Russian. Jozef Pilsudsky was not a Russian. The ruling families of the mid east who keep their people in utter ignorance are not Russians.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
With neighbors like Europeans/westerners I wouldn't put down my guard either. Matter of fact the first time the neighbor looked over my fence I'd burn their goddamn house down if moving wasn't an option. But that's me.
I think Russias actions are well within the lines of socialist ideals, the oldest mankind has. Stand together or fall. US goals concerning Russia is the destruction of the Russian Federation, up to and including war from the Baltic to the Pacific. This is known fact.
The only thing I would've done differently this last year that the Russians haven't is have troops on the Dneipre River and beyond.
As usual you provide good comments on this 'conversation' we are all having here. Stimulating for all.
I just took note of your view that it was 'greed of the West' which killed their 'democratic' dreams.
I kind of look at it another way. Democracy IS a very difficult political system. Even the Greeks 'lost' it at times. Takes a lot of effort.
We are talking about democracy in times of slavery in this case, right? That' a different story, let's talk about something more modern, otherwise we'll have to recall much earlier times of Russian democracy in Novgorod, Veche and all.
Of course there was plenty of time to learn about democracy and how it works in the Western counties.
Democracy was "very difficult political system" while it was establishing itself, step by step in Western countries, but once it has been established, it became quite obvious what all "democratic Western countries" had in common, comparably to the third world countries. Not only "Western democratic countries" were in charge of the global monetary system, but all of them had vast middle class, that shared in possessing the riches along with the "super-rich." When you have "middle class," whose private property rights are protected by law, you have "democracy," because voices of these people matter. They matter in politics, they matter in social life. ( And that's how you get "civil society" by the way.) In third world countries ( where we can't talk about democracy,) this class has been notably absent, and so was it absent in Russia throughout history ( or better to say it was conspicuously miniscule for the country of Russia's size.) It was absent there throughout Tzarists times, and it was absent there through Soviet times for obvious reasons.
So... if you want to establish democracy "Western style" in Russia, wouldn't it be logical to fix this "mistake" first of all, and to create the middle class, whose property rights are protected in the same manner as they are protected in the West? Because in such case this very class receives political power in the same manner that it has in the West. By the end of the eighties-beginning of the nineties Soviet citizens had plenty of savings, while the country was going through shortage of goods. It was perfect timing to let people buy and operate small businesses, thus creating the base for mentioned above middle class, but when such scenario has been offered by one of the Russian economists in Yeltsin's government, ( you don't think they they were all dumb, do you?) such solution has been dutifully declined by American bankers. What American "economic advisers" sitting in Kremlin dictated instead, was destruction of any value of ruble, 2000% inflation ( that immediately wiped out everyone's savings,) and after that all the riches of the country has been "sold" ( make it "placed" ) in the hands of the few, willing to promote American interests in the country. ( Or so Americans thought.) All political power in the country concentrated in the hands of the same people for obvious reasons. So basically the country has been firmly set on the path of the third world countries yet again, or better to say it has been pushed off the cliff this way. What chance for "developing of democracy" has been left for Russia under this scenario, what do you think?
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I just think it's interesting that some the former satellites did better in this vein than Russia. Perhaps they were more comfortable with the US 'system'? But I think I know why. They were checking off with what they had under the Russian economic system. I think they got tired of getting out of their cars when it started to the rain and putting their carefully guarded wipers on their windshields. Planned economies with their 'shortages' bring obvious behaviors!...;-)...
The former satellites did "better in this vein" because the West WANTED them "to do better." It wanted to take them out of Russian sphere of influence and to plug them into its own system. It's a simple answer, it I don't want to get into few other details, when it comes to differences between the economy of the Soviet Union and economies of its former satellites, which was not one and the same thing to begin with.
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And a Happy New Year to you and all who contribute here. We may not agree but that's not the point. It's exchanging views and trying to make some sense out of events. I don't drink vodka but I do drink 'palinka'. My toast is to all. I just had one shot...;-)...
Vine drinker here. ( Red vine that is.)
Happy New year again.
What chance for "developing of democracy" has been left for Russia under this scenario, what do you think?
I agree with your assessment and the chance of a middle class forming under those conditions was zero. Just like in Mexico, a small wealthy ruling class with a vast poor class of those ruled.
There's something else for Travric too. It's something not easily seen by a westerner but I think a lot of us with an interest in human history and the history of warfare can see this off in the distance. Its like a fog but in the last 20 years it's become clearer to me at least.
As a society grows and remains stable it tends to stratify into classes. You end up with the usual upper middle and lower classes. One downside to this is your upper class can get too comfortable and too powerful. Look at Rome, look at Brazil in the 1800s. In all the wars Rome had never did you see the people sending the centurions marching off to the far reaches of the empire WITH those centurions. In Brazil and it's war with Argentina/Uruguay the land holders who screamed for blood didn't even set foot off their plantations. They sent their slaves and whatever freemen they could pay, essentially mercenaries.
Look at Europe and America today. Americas middle class is shrinking, what's the state of Europes? I hear from over there is it's austerity for all. Are things tight? Who's being held accountable for this? Look at the conflicts the west has been involved in. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan all of which are utter failures by any standard. Who's being held accountable for this?
Starting to see the pattern?
There's a lot of bad decisions being made by a very few very powerful people that are costing a hell of a lot of lives. You'd almost think they didn't give a damn about it. Whether or not they do is debatable but one thing is factual. None of these people are held accountable. Not the CEO that runs a company into the ground, not the Brenners who completely screw up an occupation not our bankers not the Dick Cheneys who outright lie to the people. None ever are.
Seems to me western leaders are getting foolish for a reason. They'll never be punished, they'll never see a day in court they're above the law. Hell, they're god like.
I don't think they have anything against wasting the lives of millions of us either. Just so long as they can skip away from the scene of the crime.
That's something the whole world needs to be afraid of.
The other question that I have to both of you ( you Scrat and travric) - what kind of "socialism" in Russia now are you talking about?
Russia is a viciously capitalist society, a cut-throat society, with basically all the network of social security being destroyed. So what "socialism"?
( What a lot of Russians are LONGING FOR, is a different question. They might be longing for socialism, but what they HAVE now has nothing to do with socialism - make no mistake about it.
Wow, this news got my attention - this is a BIG deal. In the last two decades, the US Army has moved nearly all of its combat units OUT of Europe, leaving behind mostly logistics (like transportation, medical support) units. My old Army unit from the 1970s, 54th Engineer Batallion, was one of the last combat units to be deactivated in Germany, just 7 months ago in May 2014. The unit cased its colors at Warner Barracks in Bamberg, ending 61 years of continuous presence at various US Army posts in Bavaria, Germany. Warner Barracks in Bamberg was returned to to the German government following the departure of my old army unit.
Less than 2 years ago, I read an article from the Stars and Stripes (US military news publication) that did not get hardly any attention in US media. That is when the last US Army tanks where shipped out of Bremerhaven back to the US, which marked the first time since the invasion of Normandy in 1944 that there were no US tanks in mainland Europe.
It's a sad state of affairs that here we are in 2015, and we could not let even 2 years go by in Europe without sending back the heavy armor. I was hoping the US would finally close and return the 7 remaining US Army posts in Germany back over to Germany. I know that Ramstein AFB in Kaiserlautern and Landstuhl Medical Center will probably not be shut down by the US at any time in the next few decades, but the case for keeping all the other 7 Army posts is really getting old. Do we really need a garrison in Garmisch in the German Alps? Yes, it is still there.
The 150 tanks will be sent to the US Army training area at Hohenfels, which is about 60 km southeast of Nürnberg. This is one of the last two large US Army training areas in Germany, the other being nearby Grafenwöhr which is northeast of Nürnberg. I spent a lot of time at Hohenfels and Grafenwöhr in the 1970s. These are two of the largest Army training areas in central Europe still used by US and NATO troops (especially for tank and artillery live firing ranges). Now, most of the US troops at Hohenfels or Grafehwöhr are sent there from the US on short term training exercises. It will be interesting to see if the US increases permanent armored unit troops stationed at Hohenfels to go along with the tanks, or if troops will be simply rotated in and out for specific training missions.
Last edited by recycled; 01-03-2015 at 11:00 PM..
Reason: typo
I guess my idea of it is the family and community aspect of Russian life. You see this in places like Moscow too but in Belgorod you still see people talking in parks and neighbors getting together at each others homes more often. My wifes mother lives on Sevastopolskaya in Gomel Belarus and people are endlessly coming and going to houses there. Especially children, they run in packs. Everybody knows everybody. It's not what I'm used to as an American, my immediate neighbors are kind of like turtles with the exception of an older couple across the street and the large family of Samoans 3 houses down.
I agree with you that Russia is a capitalist society and a vicious one at that but friendships are still close and families still matter in most Russians eyes. Russians are pretty high minded about it.
There's also something else I can see and I noticed this when 3 street dogs in a Metro station were threatened by a bigger intruding dog. The resident dogs were all smaller than this larger dog so what did they do? They lined up shoulder to shoulder, barring their teeth, barking and leaning against one another. The intruding dog thought it better to abandon his short cut and took the long way. Russians may have their differences but they'll stand together.
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I guess my idea of it is the family and community aspect of Russian life. You see this in places like Moscow too but in Belgorod you still see people talking in parks and neighbors getting together at each others homes more often. My wifes mother lives on Sevastopolskaya in Gomel Belarus and people are endlessly coming and going to houses there. Especially children, they run in packs. Everybody knows everybody. It's not what I'm used to as an American, my immediate neighbors are kind of like turtles with the exception of an older couple across the street and the large family of Samoans 3 houses down.
I agree with you that Russia is a capitalist society and a vicious one at that but friendships are still close and families still matter in most Russians eyes. Russians are pretty high minded about it.
There's also something else I can see and I noticed this when 3 street dogs in a Metro station were threatened by a bigger intruding dog. The resident dogs were all smaller than this larger dog so what did they do? They lined up shoulder to shoulder, barring their teeth, barking and leaning against one another. The intruding dog thought it better to abandon his short cut and took the long way. Russians may have their differences but they'll stand together.
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Ah, "socialist" in terms of culture. That I can understand. I'm happy to hear that the cut-throat ideas of political system didn't kill it in Russians. ( Moscow is somewhat different story, but it was always *different* and as I've mentioned before, unanimously hated by the rest of the country.)
Erasure. Do you think my theory of "foolish western leaders" can be applied to Russian leadership?
What theory exactly?
This particular part - "Seems to me western leaders are getting foolish for a reason. They'll never be punished, they'll never see a day in court they're above the law. Hell, they're god like."
Yes?
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