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What is it that you don't understand about my post specifically and I'll see where our positions are?
Is it wrong? Do you not like it? Have I insulted you?
1.)I don't understand what was so bad about Maydan, that you call it a betrayal? betrayal of what?
And by the way what was your attitude about the first Maydan of 2004?
2.)And about tolerance - what exactly do you mean, here, in Kyiv all of the people I know are rather tolerant, I have a couple of friends who always supported the Soviet Union, a colleague at work from Luhansk with similar attitudes. Nobody's murdering them, putting to jail or even pressing on them in any way. Yes, we always argue with them, but it's their choice, their freedom, no pressure there, and never been. Everyone is free to have their opinion. That's why we definitely have democracy in Ukraine, unlike Belarus and Russia.
3.) Level of life in Soviet Union - yes, I guess, compared to nowadays people used to have more social guarantees, but still compare them with EU and US during the same time period - people were still a lot poorer in USSR, it's not like every family could afford a car for instance, like in US, or to travel abroad (both financially and politically it was problematic).
These people ( the "Euromaidan" supporters) don't fail to amuse me.
After reading their *arguments* on FB ( they do come on Russian sites,) I was totally flabbergasted by their twisted ideas about history or rather lack of knowledge of simple things. They make stuff up as they go, so I keep on wondering - what their education was all about within the last 20 years?
I mean even people who sound like your "middle class" - ( or "intelligentsia" if you wish,) do not exhibit any understanding of simple and practical stuff. With other words, Ukrainians sound like Russian villagers for the most part, but with twisted ideas. Something very surreal going on there. I thought I'd never say that, but Russians sound far more reasonable and knowledgeable, when I read their arguments.
Now let me ask you a simple question here - why do you think people in the Soviet Union lived so much worse than in the US? Did they live any better in pre-revolutionary Russia or what?
Do you think that Tzarist Russia was no different than America, and then it all suddenly changed overnight?
And do you think that Ukraine was no different from, say, Germany, until the October revolution of 1917?
What is it that you don't understand about my post specifically and I'll see where our positions are?
Is it wrong? Do you not like it? Have I insulted you?
Travric, I have to admit it's not easy to understand you sometimes - the way you put your sentences together. I kinda grasp your ideas for the most part, but...
Let me ask you a question a bit differently - is English your native tongue?
Re:'Life level in Ukraine was worse than in Russia even earlier...Russian life level is ok for us'...
Just an observation on Selena's observation.
You know and correct me please but Russia has never ever resigned itself from the goals of the October Revolution nor have they carted Lenin away and his ideas.
It's bigger than Lenin, because Russian "socialist ideas" are much older and run much deeper than him. Don't forget that Russian "mir" ( communal ownership of land and responsibility of the commune for each and every of its member is much older than any Lenin. he rather played on something that he was quite aware of. Truth to be told, "capitalism American style" that was forced upon Russians in the nineties was never meant to work for them; in fact it was downright destructive ( still is) for them to the core.)
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Frankly, there have been serious problems in instituting the kind of sunny socialism that would insure many benefits to Russians and all their 'brothers'.
There are even more serious problems in "instituting the sunny capitalism in Russia." There should have been a happy medium, that never took place.
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Russia indeed did have a chance earlier when they tried to work with 'democracy'. But unfortunately being rookies they flubbed it.
No. Greed on behalf of the West -( the US in particular) - that's what killed it all.
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And anyway I don't even think they had the heart to implement it anyway (still there as the remark about the 'opposition). But of course there will be vehement disagreement on this and then the 'blame' game follows.
Of course "they had the heart to implement it" - that's why there was no civil war, no mass protests defending the Soviet system - people were actually looking forward to positive changes - aren't you aware of that? The only time they came out on the streets was to support the parliament, that was trying to resist the draconian measures enforced by Americans. Only the US can run the budget deficit - Russians were not allowed to. Remember how it all ended up?
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Look go for the socialism but I'd say Russia can't give lip service to democracy as she definitely has if they want to implement a good socialism for their people and 'brothers'.
Plenty of people in Eastern Ukraine I'm sure would love to have socialism back and for a good reason. They've seen enough of their oligarchic capitalism already. But that's something that Russia can't give them, because truth to be told, it's a viciously capitalist society, where the profits are above all, no matter how much Putin is flirting with the old Soviet symbols.
Now let me ask you a simple question here - why do you think people in the Soviet Union lived so much worse than in the US? Did they live any better in pre-revolutionary Russia or what?
Do you think that Tzarist Russia was no different than America, and then it all suddenly changed overnight?
And do you think that Ukraine was no different from, say, Germany, until the October revolution of 1917?
I think there's some misunderstanding here the question was about life level in USSR and US/EU - Selena argued that it wasn't so bad during the Soviet times compared to nowadays, and I agreed to some extent- it was about the Russian Empire times, and yes during the empire times, as far as I know, life level was also worse than in the US.
I don't really follow the relations between Ukraine and Russia but the "we're one people" and "we Russians love Ukrainians and vice versa" statements are so identical to China's propaganda towards Taiwan.
Is there any Ukrainian here who can educate us a bit about how Ukrainians view Russia in general?
I don't really follow the relations between Ukraine and Russia but the "we're one people" and "we Russians love Ukrainians and vice versa" statements are so identical to China's propaganda towards Taiwan.
Is there any Ukrainian here who can educate us a bit about how Ukrainians view Russia in general?
This is a complicated question, first of all you have to take into account that Ukraine is a big country, with very different Western and Central/Eastern and Southern regions, the westerners' have always been more independent and anti-Russian/Soviet, the easterner not so much, untill the recent times at least.
Plus there are always exceptions, and unexpedcetly high support of independence could occur in Eastern regions from some people.
It's been like that for a long time, but now I can see that Central and Southern regions have become a lot more pro-Ukrainian.
As for similarities with Taiwan, yes I've heard a lot of similar things about their attitudes, however, as far as I know the Taiwanese are not considered worldwide as a separate nation, or at least this is still an agruable matter.
In this way our, Ukrainian situation is different, as we've been considered as a separate nation, with our own distinct language, culture,traditions etc. for a long time, and for at least a century by the official Russians representatives themselves (since the Soviet era).
This is a complicated question, first of all you have to take into account that Ukraine is a big country, with very different Western and Central/Eastern and Southern regions, the westerners' have always been more independent and anti-Russian/Soviet, the easterner not so much, untill the recent times at least.
Plus there are always exceptions, and unexpedcetly high support of independence could occur in Eastern regions from some people.
It's been like that for a long time, but now I can see that Central and Southern regions have become a lot more pro-Ukrainian.
Ok. Thanks for the reply.
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As for similarities with Taiwan, yes I've heard a lot of similar things about their attitudes, however, as far as I know the Taiwanese are not considered worldwide as a separate nation, or at least this is still an agruable matter.
In this way our, Ukrainian situation is different, as we've been considered as a separate nation, with our own distinct language, culture,traditions etc. for a long time, and for at least a century by the official Russians representatives themselves (since the Soviet era).
By similar, I meant the propaganda, not the attitudes. We hear that all the time,
"We(China and Taiwan) have the same blood flowing in our bodies!"
"Taiwan's future is to be decided by entire China!(lol Chinese can't even decide how many kids they're going to have.)"
"Taiwan and China are one people!"
"Taiwan is our sacred and unalienable territory!"
blahblahblah etc.
Erasure and Maksim's posts a few pages ago sound exactly like those, Idk how Ukrainians view them but we sure as hell are annoyed by China's juvenile idiocy.
Btw I think how the inhabitants consider themselves is all that matters, not how they are considered worldwide. That's for another discussion, though.
Last edited by Greysholic; 01-01-2015 at 11:11 AM..
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I kinda grasp your ideas for the most part, but...
