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And you do not have to talk about Ukrainian nuclear weapons. Russia is the successor of the USSR. Public debt, gold reserves and nuclear weapons of the USSR went to Russia. Ukraine - is an independent country that was invaded by Russia. Ukraine should not have nuclear weapons. Otherwise, Finland also may require nuclear weapons, because Finland was once part of Russia. But this is ridiculous.
Ukraina doesn't have nuclear weapons. They destroyed them according to the Budapest agreement, where in Russia and NATO guaranteed Ukraine's borders. But what happened? Putler wiped his ass with the paper.
re: Soros' comments..
Thanks for the post. But maybe the translation could be why Russian and Americanski and Europski brothers don't make heads or tails out of each other? ..;-)...
I'm really surprised by Selena's and ariete's attitude about LNR/DNR.
Do you really want them to be independent from both Russia and Ukraine?
But that would isolate them from the world forever until a complete economic collapse happens.
And secondly, I don't understand why do you want this at all?
To me it's like black and white:
black: Russia = Soviet Union v 2.0, without any political freedom, international isolation and hatred, plus really low and poor economy - you can argue forever, but the facts show that the average life level in Russia is really not wealthy, I don't understand why do you want the same future for Donetsk/Luhansk?
white: Ukraine, EU, USA = all kinds of religious and political freedoms are strongly supported, the whole world is open and supports their position, economy is very strong (excluding Ukraine), yeah you can argue about crisis etc., the average life level is way better in EU and US than in Russia, and than it was in Soviet Union.
Is there some grey line that I just can't see or what?
During the last year i didn't see freedom in Ukraine, only persecution and murder of people disliked the new government. I don't want to live in a such country. In DPR, despite all criminals of Ukrainian government against us, we tolerate Ukrainians as well as people of another nationalities.
Now go to the order Do you really want them to be independent from both Russia and Ukraine?
Not exactly, I've never wanted to live in Russia, just because this country is quite different from Ukraine. I am talking about laws, not about people. Now we have no choice, stay in Ukraine is a suicide for us and it is not our fault, but fault of the new government and their sponsors, we all know who begins wars for bringing democracy and at the same time getting control of the territories with gas and oil. Russia can't take us too, so we must build our own country. I was absolutely satisfied living in Ulraine before Maydan and even proud with my country, now I do not associate myself with this country. It's hard, not because of the war, but because the usual state of affairs changed, we became enemies because someone needed a power in Ukraine. We will not forgive such a betrayal of this country and the people who blindly believe politicians.
Russia = Soviet Union v 2.0, without any political freedom, international isolation and hatred, plus really low and poor economy - you can argue forever, but the facts show that the average life level in Russia is really not wealthy
Millions people which were born and lived in Soviet Union will not be agree with you. As for hater, isolation etc., the whole world is not only the United States and bought them several governments, the world is much bigger and to us much more important opinion of those countries that have achieved something more than the existence of US money and support only what their "lord" allowed to do them.
Life level in Ukraine was worse than in Russia even earlier. I think that now life level there worse than in Somalia, that's what I don't want for a country where I live, Russian life level is ok for us.
Ukraine, EU, USA = all kinds of religious and political freedoms are strongly supported, the whole world is open and supports their position
I told already about freedom in Ukraine now and what do we in fact think about opinion of USA and EU together.
Political freedoms in Russia is a good question) A year ago I would be outraged by the arrests of opposition leaders and their followers. After the events in Ukraine, I support the Russian government and I hope that they will never allow such events. We do not need American values, they can not decide for everyone what is good and what is bad. Suppose first solve their internal problems, and only then say something about other countries
Re:'Life level in Ukraine was worse than in Russia even earlier...Russian life level is ok for us'...
Just an observation on Selena's observation.
You know and correct me please but Russia has never ever resigned itself from the goals of the October Revolution nor have they carted Lenin away and his ideas. What you have I'd say follows from all that. Frankly, there have been serious problems in instituting the kind of sunny socialism that would insure many benefits to Russians and all their 'brothers'.
Russia indeed did have a chance earlier when they tried to work with 'democracy'. But unfortunately being rookies they flubbed it. And anyway I don't even think they had the heart to implement it anyway (still there as the remark about the 'opposition). But of course there will be vehement disagreement on this and then the 'blame' game follows.
Look go for the socialism but I'd say Russia can't give lip service to democracy as she definitely has if they want to implement a good socialism for their people and 'brothers'. If 'peaceful coexistence' is the goal here Russia certainly has a funny way of going about it.
^
Yes that is true. I don't deny it. But really how are Russians supposed to look at the situation you note in light of what Russia is trying to do with their society and overall country? It's almost to see the country suffering so much for that great socialist vision that seems to be handed down to the 'heirs' of Lenin. I know Russia has junked capitalism to find their own way. Great but it too has its grave problems. You guys are killing each other and for what? A socialist vision or based on a real fear that another is picking a 'junked' way and must be punished?
Re:'Life level in Ukraine was worse than in Russia even earlier...Russian life level is ok for us'...
Just an observation on Selena's observation.
You know and correct me please but Russia has never ever resigned itself from the goals of the October Revolution nor have they carted Lenin away and his ideas. What you have I'd say follows from all that. Frankly, there have been serious problems in instituting the kind of sunny socialism that would insure many benefits to Russians and all their 'brothers'.
Russia indeed did have a chance earlier when they tried to work with 'democracy'. But unfortunately being rookies they flubbed it. And anyway I don't even think they had the heart to implement it anyway (still there as the remark about the 'opposition). But of course there will be vehement disagreement on this and then the 'blame' game follows.
Look go for the socialism but I'd say Russia can't give lip service to democracy as she definitely has if they want to implement a good socialism for their people and 'brothers'. If 'peaceful coexistence' is the goal here Russia certainly has a funny way of going about it.
Quote:
Yes that is true. I don't deny it. But really how are Russians supposed to look at the situation you note in light of what Russia is trying to do with their society and overall country? It's almost to see the country suffering so much for that great socialist vision that seems to be handed down to the 'heirs' of Lenin. I know Russia has junked capitalism to find their own way. Great but it too has its grave problems. You guys are killing each other and for what? A socialist vision or based on a real fear that another is picking a 'junked' way and must be punished?
Does anybody understand just what in the hell Travic is talking about? Is there a language barrier here Travic? Where are you from? Honestly Trav this isn't clear.
Ukraina doesn't have nuclear weapons. They destroyed them according to the Budapest agreement, where in Russia and NATO guaranteed Ukraine's borders. But what happened? Putler wiped his ass with the paper.
1. The Budapest agreement was not ratified.
2. Ukraine had no right to have nuclear weapons. I wrote why.
During the last year i didn't see freedom in Ukraine, only persecution and murder of people disliked the new government. I don't want to live in a such country. In DPR, despite all criminals of Ukrainian government against us, we tolerate Ukrainians as well as people of another nationalities.
Now go to the order Do you really want them to be independent from both Russia and Ukraine?
Not exactly, I've never wanted to live in Russia, just because this country is quite different from Ukraine. I am talking about laws, not about people. Now we have no choice, stay in Ukraine is a suicide for us and it is not our fault, but fault of the new government and their sponsors, we all know who begins wars for bringing democracy and at the same time getting control of the territories with gas and oil. Russia can't take us too, so we must build our own country. I was absolutely satisfied living in Ulraine before Maydan and even proud with my country, now I do not associate myself with this country. It's hard, not because of the war, but because the usual state of affairs changed, we became enemies because someone needed a power in Ukraine. We will not forgive such a betrayal of this country and the people who blindly believe politicians.
Russia = Soviet Union v 2.0, without any political freedom, international isolation and hatred, plus really low and poor economy - you can argue forever, but the facts show that the average life level in Russia is really not wealthy
Millions people which were born and lived in Soviet Union will not be agree with you.
1.)I don't understand what was so bad about Maydan, that you call it a betrayal? betrayal of what?
And by the way what was your attitude about the first Maydan of 2004?
2.)And about tolerance - what exactly do you mean, here, in Kyiv all of the people I know are rather tolerant, I have a couple of friends who always supported the Soviet Union, a colleague at work from Luhansk with similar attitudes. Nobody's murdering them, putting to jail or even pressing on them in any way. Yes, we always argue with them, but it's their choice, their freedom, no pressure there, and never been. Everyone is free to have their opinion. That's why we definitely have democracy in Ukraine, unlike Belarus and Russia.
3.) Level of life in Soviet Union - yes, I guess, compared to nowadays people used to have more social guarantees, but still compare them with EU and US during the same time period - people were still a lot poorer in USSR, it's not like every family could afford a car for instance, like in US, or to travel abroad (both financially and politically it was problematic).
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