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hey now. Let's be honest here. I haven't seen any Christians on this board call for a gay person to be physically harmed because of their choice of sexual partners.
As for the civil liberties issue? That's in the eye of the person making the claim. You say I handled it "properly", then bash them for "denying civil rights". There is no civil right to marriage, and certainly not a civil right to a same sex marriage.
No one has called for such things. I am disgusted how many posters here have blamed Christians for the murders and used the incident to kick mud on Christians.
Your posts are a joke. Here they are in a nutshell:
1. You're stupid. You need an education.
2. You're a Pharisee. Jesus was against Pharisees so I can hate you!! Score!
3. You're a closet gay person.
4. You're a bigot.
5. Rinse Repeat
If anyone actually believes in your twisted brand of Christianity then they are the ones who need an education. Making up LIES about someone certainly is vomit inducing.
yep. Every post is incredibly hostile and judgmental
I clearly condemned the post about the pastor today as being reprehensible so your logic doesn't even hold up. What exactly is this truth that I am denying? That there are some bad preachers out there? Ok, I agree. You are just so stubbornly against me that you fabricate arguments that don't even exist.
If I'm having such a hard time admitting that these guys are in the wrong, why would I even make those comments? I've explained before that I only have time to reply to the most recent posts and work backwards so I'm sorry if you think you are so special that your posts deserve top priority. If you are making the effort to go back and count posts then maybe you need to stop taking a meaningless online discussion so seriously.
I haven't had to fabricate anything . Out of all the examples given of Christians making comments about what should be done to gays , you didn't condemn any of them at the time , and chose to defend the one by Knapp . Then when it was shown that he was lying you essentially ignored the discussion from there on.
As far as these discussions, they are not life and death, nor serious and world changing, but I do not regard them as meaningless . I wouldn't bother with them if I thought that . I do think that some readers minds get opened by reading these discussions . And I took the couple of minutes to count your posts because your common tactic when you get called out for ignoring and abandoning a discussion you realize you can't respond properly to is to claim that you don't have the time to read or respond to everything . So again, you couldn't be bothered to go to the link provided to learn the truth about the pastor but you had the time to make nineteen posts after the link was provided . That speaks volumes about how much, or how little , you care for learning the truth concerning any of these issues that come up here . You apparently are content with accepting any garbage fed you by your side as long as it doesn't make you have to question your beliefs too deeply .
No one has called for such things. I am disgusted how many posters here have blamed Christians for the murders and used the incident to kick mud on Christians.
Indeed, how DARE us hold Christians accountable, not for the actual murders (obviously!), but for their part in contributing to the normalization of bigotry and inequality and discrimination in America.
The Orlando mass shooting was proximally caused by mental illness amplified by non-Christian ideology. But that didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened in an overall social milieu for which we all need to examine ourselves for the roles we play. I would submit that the NRA and homophobes and religious fundamentalists of all stripes have roles for which they are responsible and should be introspecting about rather than distancing themselves from.
Am I suggesting that, say, you or Jeff personally MEAN to contribute to the problem? No. I assume you are well intended people and find that the mere suggestion of even the most tangential responsibility for the climate of hate and divisiveness in this country, offends your self-image. However ... I'm afraid that your self image is wrong to the extent that for instance you think gays don't deserve to be treated the same as you, for example with respect to recognition of their right to marry. That their right to marry conflicts with your pet dogma of choice is not relevant to that discussion. You think gays are "less than" you in that regard, and as such, you promote the same sort of ideology that a mentally ill self-loathing closeted gay-in-denial latched onto in his sick attempt at personal redemption for the very "sin of homosexuality" that you decry at every opportunity.
Every time you claim homosexuality is chosen you reinforce that. Every time you claim homosexuality is harmful to society you reinforce that. That you claim these things because of your holy book is immaterial.
I hope I have been clear that you personally, and Christianity corporately, are not responsible for the Orlando shooter. The claim is that you contribute materially and consistently to a climate that predictably produces situations like this. Nothing more nor less. Further: if Christian fundamentalism were to stop marginalizing and otherizing and shaming gays today, some of these incidents would still happen, because there are other actors and causes involved. But a lot of these incidents would not happen if you would take a responsible moral stand on the issue. And the trend of escalating violence would reverse because of your outsize influence in American society. That's the relation of your hateful ideology to the situation. Nothing more nor less.
The Sacramento preacher is very confused and an idiot for his musings. He clearly does not know what he's talking on concerning God and I find it funny (if you find the full sermon and listen to it) he overlooks a lot of sinful actions and even call it natural, in comparison to homosexuality which he calls unnatural.
I think you are reaching just a little too far when comparing killing gays like Isis tossing gays off of buildings, Christians cannot be compared to that today.. I believe homosexuality is a sin because God says it is a sin but I would not tell a homosexual that he is going to hell because I don't believe it and if he goes to hell, I am right there with them.
If Levitical Law is applied to all, then the Bible also says you are condemned for:
- Eating shellfish:
Leviticus 11:10 “And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.”
- Eating fat or blood:
Leviticus 3:17 “It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood"
- Wear ripped jeans or a or not wearing a hat
Leviticus 10:6 “Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people.”
- Getting too short a haircut or not growing a beard:
Leviticus 19:27 “Ye shall not round the corners of your heads.”
Leviticus 19:27 “Neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.”
- Having wine at the temple (oh, wait - Christians do this all the time?!)
Leviticus 10:9 “Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die.”
- Buying or selling land
Leviticus 25:23 "The land must never be sold on a permanent basis, for the land belongs to me. You are only foreigners and tenant farmers working for me."
- Or trying to get into heaven if your "male equipment" has been lost somehow
Deuteronomy 23:1 "A man whose (balls) are crushed or whose (manhood) is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord."
SUMMARY: Somewhere in the same parts of the Bible that list the above condemnations (and plenty more equally nonsensical) there is the condemnation for gays. And that condemnation should bear no more weight these days than claiming somebody is going to hell because he wore ripped jeans. It is utterly laughable, and while I haven't studied the Koran, it is safe to assume that whatever condemnation it has for gays is probably tossed in the same book with equally nonsensical Islamic ways to "go to hell" for absurd things.
People need to wake up and take long look at their religion - regardless of which one it is - and start sorting the good parts from the bad. Otherwise, we're just going to keep seeing more violence like what happened in Florida, sadly, because once somebody is convinced "god told them to do something" their minds cannot be changed, even if they intend to kill. The only prevention is to make sure there are no bigots speaking hatred in the name of god.
Indeed, how DARE us hold Christians accountable, not for the actual murders (obviously!), but for their part in contributing to the normalization of bigotry and inequality and discrimination in America.
The Orlando mass shooting was proximally caused by mental illness amplified by non-Christian ideology. But that didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened in an overall social milieu for which we all need to examine ourselves for the roles we play. I would submit that the NRA and homophobes and religious fundamentalists of all stripes have roles for which they are responsible and should be introspecting about rather than distancing themselves from.
I notice you leave atheists and secularists out the mix of responsibility which only demonstrates the type of mentality that emanates from the liberal left. IT's the mentality that they can do no wrong, never be wrong, and therefore every single social problem is never their fault, it is the conservatives, Christians and religious people. If you are going to infuse blame as far as groups like NRA then I can say liberal Hollywood shares much blame for injecting countless images of violence into young people. This shooter most likely has seen hundreds of people shot or killed in movies and tv shows which could have fostered his own violent fantasies that he wanted to eventually make a reality. The truth is quite simple. Our society would be a whole lot less at odds or violent if everyone just followed God's basic principle. Put the needs of others before yourself. Love and help your neighbor and someone will help you too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Am I suggesting that, say, you or Jeff personally MEAN to contribute to the problem? No. I assume you are well intended people and find that the mere suggestion of even the most tangential responsibility for the climate of hate and divisiveness in this country, offends your self-image. However ... I'm afraid that your self image is wrong to the extent that for instance you think gays don't deserve to be treated the same as you, for example with respect to recognition of their right to marry. That their right to marry conflicts with your pet dogma of choice is not relevant to that discussion. You think gays are "less than" you in that regard, and as such, you promote the same sort of ideology that a mentally ill self-loathing closeted gay-in-denial latched onto in his sick attempt at personal redemption for the very "sin of homosexuality" that you decry at every opportunity.
Every time you claim homosexuality is chosen you reinforce that. Every time you claim homosexuality is harmful to society you reinforce that. That you claim these things because of your holy book is immaterial.
Marriage is either a sacred vow before God or it is just a label. If it is just a label then a government civil union should have been quite sufficient. No, they need that word "married" because it's really about pushing your ideology onto Bible believing Christians and demanding that we conform to your values. It's no different than coming into a stranger's house and ripping up all the furniture and telling them that you want it decorated your way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I hope I have been clear that you personally, and Christianity corporately, are not responsible for the Orlando shooter. The claim is that you contribute materially and consistently to a climate that predictably produces situations like this.
In other words, you want to try to look like you're not blaming us, but yea you really are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Nothing more nor less. Further: if Christian fundamentalism were to stop marginalizing and otherizing and shaming gays today, some of these incidents would still happen, because there are other actors and causes involved. But a lot of these incidents would not happen if you would take a responsible moral stand on the issue. And the trend of escalating violence would reverse because of your outsize influence in American society. That's the relation of your hateful ideology to the situation. Nothing more nor less.
The only hate in our ideology is hate for sin, but I understand your need to ignore this factor because it takes away your ability to scapegoat us. Have gay people been treated poorly by society? Certainly. So has pretty much every demographic or group at one time or another. You make this big claim of discrimination when I am quite confident that the reality is most gay people are well educated, enjoy eating at good restaurants, have no problems getting housing and are financially successful. Exactly where is the discrimination? Interesting enough, Christians face a lot of hate and discrimination from the LGBT community. Any business now that does not support homosexuality usually receives vicious death threats and damage to property. And people who have left the homosexual lifestyle are ridiculed and treated with hate. So stop pretending that society would be wonderful and peace loving if Christians went away.
I hereby condemn that sort of speech outright. Please say no Christians are condemning it--because I, as a member of the clergy--outright condemn it. I am certain many other Christians do, as well.
Thank you..here are 7 other members of the clergy who hold the opposite view--
“Hey, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today? No … I think that’s great. I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida’s a little safer tonight,” he said to his flock. “It is unnatural for a man to be attracted to another man. The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die.”
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