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This is not about you Jeff. 49 of your brothers and sisters were killed by an ideologue. He decided the sin of being gay made it okay to kill people. These Pastors fuel the fire of hatred.
I have never suggested you should not exist, not once, and never would. You are making your life about the perceived sin of others. You are capable of so much more.
Someone calling you a waste of oxygen hurts your feelings. I understand that. You will not die from getting your feelings hurt.
It doesn't hurt my feelings. Rather the hypocrisy angers me. You pick some isolated pastors to shuffle the blame towards Christians when the mass majority of Christians have no hate. But call a Christian a waste of oxygen which is reprehensible language and it doesn't even phase you or your friends. Threatening to rape a Christian business owner's child with a broken bottle is extremely reprehensible and all I saw was cold indifference reaction from your camp. At least acknowledge that your side can be just as mean, ugly, intolerant, violent and hateful. Do I need to post the video again of the pastor being attacked at a gay rally?
The shooter didn't just decide to go murder 49 people because he thought they were living in sin. This was an act of someone with a deep level of evil in his heart. This man was pure evil. People were begging for their lives and this guy just mowed them down and actually laughed about it! A demomic influence has to exist in someone capable of such actions.
And you don't seem to understand the mindset that it is still sin, and we are not going to embrace sin just because society does. You wouldn't expect a church to allow a couple to bring beer and drugs to date night either, would you?
"But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."
1 Corinthians 5:11
So you are A-Okay with excluding all gay people. No one is asking to bring beer and weed to church night, Jeff, just asking that you include people such as gay couples. This is the attitude that people talk about. When you become okay with treating gay people (or any other group) as second class citizens not worthy to attend your church, you are fueling this violence and hatred towards them.
Now don't get me wrong here, Jeff. I do not think you MEAN to be part of it, and I don't think you MEAN it in that way, but the fact is, it doesn't matter how you MEAN it, it matters how it is perceived. The moment you become okay with treating a group of people as lesser human beings, you start fostering this attitude of hate.
As far as your Bible verse goes, are you telling me that you do not associate with ANYONE who fits in those categories? The only way you wouldn't, is if you have absolutely no friends or family. Fact is, you are simply picking and choosing which sins and which people to associate with.
It doesn't hurt my feelings. Rather the hypocrisy angers me. You pick some isolated pastors to shuffle the blame towards Christians when the mass majority of Christians have no hate. But call a Christian a waste of oxygen which is reprehensible language and it doesn't even phase you or your friends. Threatening to rape a Christian business owner's child with a broken bottle is extremely reprehensible and all I saw was cold indifference reaction from your camp. At least acknowledge that your side can be just as mean, ugly, intolerant, violent and hateful. Do I need to post the video again of the pastor being attacked at a gay rally?
The shooter didn't just decide to go murder 49 people because he thought they were living in sin. This was an act of someone with a deep level of evil in his heart. This man was pure evil. People were begging for their lives and this guy just mowed them down and actually laughed about it! A demomic influence has to exist in someone capable of such actions.
As to the bold.... You have been told over and over again by just about every non believer on this site (and some believers), that if this did indeed happen, then the person is scum. You have also been told that there was no police report, and no one to corroborate that it happened, other than the family trying to get publicity from it. You have also been told that even if a call like that was made, there is no way to tell whether a gay person or a straight person or an atheist or anyone else really, made the call.
You have also been told that you video showed a person attacking a pastor, but in no way does it show an "atheist" attacking the pastor. Sure, he could have been, but he could have been anything else as well. You love jumping to conclusions that fit your narrative, but when they are proven wrong, or in this case when they are unsubstantiated, you need to admit you could be wrong and move on.
You should learn from your mistakes and stop repeating them, man. This is embarrassing.
It doesn't hurt my feelings. Rather the hypocrisy angers me. You pick some isolated pastors to shuffle the blame towards Christians when the mass majority of Christians have no hate. But call a Christian a waste of oxygen which is reprehensible language and it doesn't even phase you or your friends. Threatening to rape a Christian business owner's child with a broken bottle is extremely reprehensible and all I saw was cold indifference reaction from your camp. At least acknowledge that your side can be just as mean, ugly, intolerant, violent and hateful. Do I need to post the video again of the pastor being attacked at a gay rally?
The shooter didn't just decide to go murder 49 people because he thought they were living in sin. This was an act of someone with a deep level of evil in his heart. This man was pure evil. People were begging for their lives and this guy just mowed them down and actually laughed about it! A demomic influence has to exist in someone capable of such actions.
I did not believe the threat to the teen son. I believe there are problems within that family. The threats were not reported to the police. I do not support threatening anyone.
Fundamentalist ideologues regardless of faith are dangerous. Robert Dear, and Dylan Roof, Tim McVeigh are prime examples. They are fueled by unreasonable anger against their brothers and sisters. It eats at their souls.
Those Pastors, calling for death, and cheering the death of your brothers and sisters are dangerous to both of us.
I don't think what a church does internally is any business of those who don't attend . So I don't see the guy being forced to resign as an issue .
The other guy being able to say what he did about the mass killing of gays and still keep his job speaks poorly of the quality and Christlikeness of his congregation , without a doubt .
I don't actually have an issue with it. Frankly, an organization which predicates its belief system on an ancient book is one for which I simply have not a shred of expectation of reasonable behavior. But that's not my point.
The point is one of priorities.
The mass-murder advocate remains a pastor in good standing. The advocate for inclusion and less condemnation of people for who they are is forced out.
I don't actually have an issue with it. Frankly, an organization which predicates its belief system on an ancient book is one for which I simply have not a shred of expectation of reasonable behavior. But that's not my point.
The point is one of priorities.
The mass-murder advocate remains a pastor in good standing. The advocate for inclusion and less condemnation of people for who they are is forced out.
What more needs to be said?
I'm not sure what you mean by priorities ? It's not as if there was some national body that made both decisions , and seemed to be more concerned with getting rid of a pro gay pastor than a hateful idiot . In fact , the decision to terminate the pro gay pastor was made before the shooting , and announced to the congregation before the shooting . There is no connection at all between the decisions on each pastor .
I think any decent church filled with decent people would boot the idiot in Sacramento . But this is unrelated to a church releasing a pastor before this event because he doesn't agree with their church stance on homosexuality and tried to change it .
I notice you leave atheists and secularists out the mix of responsibility which only demonstrates the type of mentality that emanates from the liberal left.
Read what I said again. I said WE ALL need to examine ourselves for the roles that we play. As such, YOUR self examination has nothing to do with mine or anyone else's.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
It's the mentality that they can do no wrong, never be wrong, and therefore every single social problem is never their fault, it is the conservatives, Christians and religious people.
Then you will be pleased to know that, not only did I include US ALL in the need for self examination for any role we might play in exacerbating the climate of homophobia and paranoia ... I make no such claim for myself or for others. Other than in between your ears. Further you will be even more pleased to know that I believe that fundamentalist Christians CAN do things that aren't wrong. Why else would I be appealing to them to DO the right thing here?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If you are going to infuse blame as far as groups like NRA then I can say liberal Hollywood shares much blame for injecting countless images of violence into young people.
I agree that gratuitous violence in entertainments is a part of the problem. We would probably not agree on the exact definition of "gratuitous" and "violence" but we would not entirely disagree either.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Our society would be a whole lot less at odds or violent if everyone just followed God's basic principle. Put the needs of others before yourself. Love and help your neighbor and someone will help you too.
You see this as "god's basic principle", I see it as social reciprocity and societal morality but regardless of the source, yes, I agree.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Marriage is either a sacred vow before God or it is just a label. If it is just a label then a government civil union should have been quite sufficient. No, they need that word "married" because it's really about pushing your ideology onto Bible believing Christians and demanding that we conform to your values. It's no different than coming into a stranger's house and ripping up all the furniture and telling them that you want it decorated your way.
Marriage is a special relationship recognized by society for most people before SSM and recognized by society for those same people after SSM. You continue to fail to describe what has changed for you and your tribe here, or what is being forced on you, other than the requirement to coexist and share with people you don't agree with.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
In other words, you want to try to look like you're not blaming us, but yea you really are.
I AM blaming "you" for certain things, and not for others. I was quite clear.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The only hate in our ideology is hate for sin, but I understand your need to ignore this factor because it takes away your ability to scapegoat us. Have gay people been treated poorly by society? Certainly. So has pretty much every demographic or group at one time or another. You make this big claim of discrimination when I am quite confident that the reality is most gay people are well educated, enjoy eating at good restaurants, have no problems getting housing and are financially successful. Exactly where is the discrimination?
Discrimination? What discrimination? That is apparently your argument. Deny that there is discrimination, direct or systemic, or that you have any even indirect input into that discrimination. Doesn't change what is true about the situation.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Interesting enough, Christians face a lot of hate and discrimination from the LGBT community. Any business now that does not support homosexuality usually receives vicious death threats and damage to property. And people who have left the homosexual lifestyle are ridiculed and treated with hate. So stop pretending that society would be wonderful and peace loving if Christians went away.
Here again you'll be pleased to know that not only did I say unambiguously in the message you are responding to, but will repeat it yet again, that there will still be problems in the world if Christians took a moral stand against inequality, bigotry and fear, and took steps to correct their behavior and attitudes. But in this country at least it would have quite a lot of influence on improving the situation. Further, I will make explicit what was implicit in my statement, which is that by asking Christians to do the right thing I am not suggesting that they "go away". Quite the opposite. In a sense they are checked out now and I am asking them to check in and be part of the solution.
Now we will see if you will continue your persecution narrative that I said things I haven't and made claims for perfection for myself or others that I didn't make ... or if you will just keep repeating the same things and not listening or acknowledging what I'm actually saying.
We were a far more united nation before fundamentalists began their political activism. Since that time everything has become black and white, right or wrong, good or bad. That's the nature of fundamentalism. It is the exact same thing in both Islam and Christianity among their respective fundamentalists.
Yes and no. Any person or group has the right to advance their political stances by lawful means, even people you or I disagree with. The larger defect as I see it is that we haven't been on the ball in countering them and getting our own message out.
Odd things seem to be going on for example in this election cycle. Trump is no more racist / xenophobic / divisive / boorish (or shamelessly pandering to evangelicals) now than during the primaries. Yet during the primaries the media pretty much gave him a free pass, never questioned him or even made him uncomfortable. Instead they enjoyed the ratings bump he gave them. Now all of a sudden they're acting a bit like actual journalists instead of newstainment purveyors and they are calling him pretty consistently on his BS. His disapproval ratings have now soared back to 70% and he is losing the most support among his core base of uneducated white males. In other words with just a little fact checking and truth-telling even those yokels can be shamed into withdrawing their support for what The Week recently termed "a pile of human rabies".*
This is what I am talking about ... Trump has every right to run, and people have every right to hold his feet to the fire of reality. It's the same with religious activists, or, for that matter, with areligious activists. Public discourse is healthy and good. We have nothing to fear from demagogues so long as the non-demagogues are on their game too.
* In case someone wants to decry this as liberal media bias, the same editorial (which was basically about the integrity of a person not voting if no one has actually EARNED their vote) described Hillary as a "grifter" who "if she thought it would bring her four centimeters closer to the presidency, would eat your squealing grandchild (or hers) alive on the set of The View."
It doesn't hurt my feelings. Rather the hypocrisy angers me. You pick some isolated pastors to shuffle the blame towards Christians when the mass majority of Christians have no hate. But call a Christian a waste of oxygen which is reprehensible language and it doesn't even phase you or your friends. Threatening to rape a Christian business owner's child with a broken bottle is extremely reprehensible and all I saw was cold indifference reaction from your camp. At least acknowledge that your side can be just as mean, ugly, intolerant, violent and hateful. Do I need to post the video again of the pastor being attacked at a gay rally?
[COLOR="DarkRed"]^I agree with the above. There is no difference in hate and judgement, it's hate and judgement regardless of who's mouth it propels out of. [/color]
The shooter didn't just decide to go murder 49 people because he thought they were living in sin. This was an act of someone with a deep level of evil in his heart. This man was pure evil. People were begging for their lives and this guy just mowed them down and actually laughed about it! A demomic influence has to exist in someone capable of such actions.
^This, though, this is my issue. There is no proven demonic influence nor has anyone been proven to inhabit the devil. I'm not singling you out in any way. Our leaders also blame clearly explainable issues on "evil" or "demons" and it really loses all credible content at that point. To say this implies riding ourselves of evil through a god, praying, casting out like a mid evil ritual. This is 2016, we need to stick with humanity and what we actually know.
Groups can influence people and cause herds of humans who would normally not react violently to act destructively. Mental illness left untreated can result in death. There isn't any proof of a God being a viable option to prevent these tragedies. Even if one who survives states that he's thankful to a God.
There are plenty of religious people who are gay, they want weddings done in a church. They also thank a God for their well being and safety, wealth, longevity but, we can't act on hearsay as a country. We have to stick with the facts for humanities sake. The facts are as a country we cannot state "evil" as a cause.
I think broadening our presidential choices in the future will help with this. Presently we have a Christian owned presidential seat. I hope those of us who realise the difference it will make in the future will attempt to put a non-religious being into that seat so we can address real issues dealing with real people. We need to stop the "evil" and deal with reality. America is full of all kinds of people, we can only deal with reality.
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