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Old 03-04-2019, 08:03 PM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I visited Brazil 30 years ago going to Rio and Salvador. These two cities have very different dynamics btw with Salvador proudly embracing its "Africanness".


I have spoken to people who have visited more recently, one even a few months ago. What has happened is that blacks (mainly Americans) have become more visible, both in the media and as visitors. This has been viewed by many "black" Brazilians who began to query what they were told about the "poor" black American.


Small highly vocal black empowerment groups emerged setting out to destroy the myth that racism didn't exist in Brazil. They joined with other Afro Latin groups to ensure that discussions of racism became more open. Lula and prior presidents attempted to address the issue of economic exclusion by "blacks" and a rising "black" middle class began to emerge, though I don't know the extent to which it exists with Brazil's recent economic difficulties.


But the adverse conditions that "black" Brazilians endure remain and most blacks still remain marginalized in ways even more severe than blacks in the USA.




I say "black" Brazilians because defining who is black in Brazil is harder than it is in the USA which is why affirmative action, problematic in the USA (does it mainly benefit the black upper middle class?) is even more so in Brazil. A white looking person can claim to be "black" by bringing a picture of his mulata grandmother. He benefits from affirmative action even though he doesn't suffer from the rampant implicit bias that a more obviously Afro descendant looking person will.


I also say "black" because no one really knows how many Afro descendants exist in Brazil as only those who look almost 100% black will admit to it, that is aside from those in the black empowerment movement, or in places like Salvador. So the tendency is to embrace everyone who doesn't identify as being "white" as being Afro descendant, even though most are more accurately described as mestizo. What I do know is Brazil isn't 50% afro descendant. Maybe 20%. if we go by those who show visible Afro ancestry.
Are you going back just the two cities you visited, in determining that Brazil is 20% afro descendent? I'm not sure one visit 30 years ago can accurately define the demographics of an entire nation.

Being Black isn't really that hard to define in Brazil when they want to. When people apply for universities, they have to submit THEIR personal pictures to apply. Ditto for employment. There is no confusion on whether someone has African features anywhere in the world WHEN people want to be HONEST.

Of course, it would be interesting to here the perspectives of Black Brazilians or Black people who at least more recently spent significant time in Brazil.
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Old 03-05-2019, 04:50 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,923,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Are you going back just the two cities you visited, in determining that Brazil is 20% afro descendent? I'm not sure one visit 30 years ago can accurately define the demographics of an entire nation.

Being Black isn't really that hard to define in Brazil when they want to. When people apply for universities, they have to submit THEIR personal pictures to apply. Ditto for employment. There is no confusion on whether someone has African features anywhere in the world WHEN people want to be HONEST.

Of course, it would be interesting to here the perspectives of Black Brazilians or Black people who at least more recently spent significant time in Brazil.
I didn't not stand up and define what % is black. I offered a TENTATIVE opinion as to what it might be, mainly to refute the notion that 53% is.


I also spoke with people who visited Rio as recently as 3 months ago to verify what changes had occurred. Aside from a heightened black identity movement and a SLIGHTLY larger "black" professional/management class (virtually non existent 30 years ago, not much has changed. One certainly doesn't see as many "blacks" in the media in professional roles in Brazil as one would see in the USA. Everyday on Bloomberg TV one can see blacks discussing capital markets. Its no longer seen as being noteworthy.


And yes who is black is hard to define when one leaves the USA. The only countries where Alicia Keyes will be black will be the USA and maybe Canada. In Jamaica she is a "browning", would injure you if you called her black. In Brazil if she with her money wants to call herself "white" she might well get away with it.


In Sub Saharan Africa Alicia Keyes will be seen as being "white" and they would struggle to understand why she wouldn't be. To them light skinned is Will Smith. At best she would be North African. What "African" features do Alicia Keyes or Mariah Carey have?


In fact affirmative action in Brazil illustrates the point.


A man looking like Donald Trump enjoys white privilege in Sao Paulo denied to a man looking like Obama. He then "manufactures" a black ancestor, which in Brazil mightn't be difficulty if his family goes back to the mid 19th C. Gets into college under affirmative action, then resumes his white privilege.


Will Smith has a double problem. He faces the stigma of being "black", but if he complains he would be told that he isn't "black" so he has no right to complain about how blacks are treated. He will NOT have the ability to get white privilege while still benefitting from affirmative action.
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Old 03-05-2019, 06:07 PM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I didn't not stand up and define what % is black. I offered a TENTATIVE opinion as to what it might be, mainly to refute the notion that 53% is.


I also spoke with people who visited Rio as recently as 3 months ago to verify what changes had occurred. Aside from a heightened black identity movement and a SLIGHTLY larger "black" professional/management class (virtually non existent 30 years ago, not much has changed. One certainly doesn't see as many "blacks" in the media in professional roles in Brazil as one would see in the USA. Everyday on Bloomberg TV one can see blacks discussing capital markets. Its no longer seen as being noteworthy.


And yes who is black is hard to define when one leaves the USA. The only countries where Alicia Keyes will be black will be the USA and maybe Canada. In Jamaica she is a "browning", would injure you if you called her black. In Brazil if she with her money wants to call herself "white" she might well get away with it.


In Sub Saharan Africa Alicia Keyes will be seen as being "white" and they would struggle to understand why she wouldn't be. To them light skinned is Will Smith. At best she would be North African. What "African" features do Alicia Keyes or Mariah Carey have?


In fact affirmative action in Brazil illustrates the point.


A man looking like Donald Trump enjoys white privilege in Sao Paulo denied to a man looking like Obama. He then "manufactures" a black ancestor, which in Brazil mightn't be difficulty if his family goes back to the mid 19th C. Gets into college under affirmative action, then resumes his white privilege.


Will Smith has a double problem. He faces the stigma of being "black", but if he complains he would be told that he isn't "black" so he has no right to complain about how blacks are treated. He will NOT have the ability to get white privilege while still benefitting from affirmative action.
Speaking with people means any information you have is second or third hand at best. You have no direct knowledge of modern Brazil. It doesn't mean that all you say is wrong, but you speak in such declarative terms as if you know these things for facts when you do not.

Proof that white people like Trump manufacture Black ancestors in order to get into university? Actual demonstrated proof. Not speculation, not gossip from your friends, but legitimate proof in the form of articles written by Brazilians who have documented this?

It is not hard to define who is Black when one leaves the US. Only delusional people in the Caribbean who have issues of self hate that issue.

In all the Spanish speaking countries I've been to, I, who am more or less Will Smith's color, have been consistently referred to as negro or moreno.

You have a lot of personal issues you tend to project on entire groups of people, and you speak in absolutist terms on these things.

You have not been to Brazil in 30 years and that was on vacation, so basically you are not an authority on Brazil. I too am not an authority in Brazil, as I have not been in many years either. But I'm not claiming to be the number one expert on all things concerning anything remotely connected to people of African descent.

Re: The 53 percent number, you don't have any data to support your refuting it. Essentially you have no idea of what you're talking about and are just running your mouth non stop.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,554 posts, read 2,425,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
It is not hard to define who is Black when one leaves the US. Only delusional people in the Caribbean who have issues of self hate that issue.
Leave Caribbean people out of it. Do you live here? People living here are not delusional. Just because we may not think like you as an African-American doesn’t automatically make us delusional. Ideas of race vary depending on where you are...
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:24 PM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineDeCoeur View Post
Leave Caribbean people out of it. Do you live here? People living here are not delusional. Just because we may not think like you as an African-American doesn’t automatically make us delusional. Ideas of race vary depending on where you are...
CaribNY is certainly putting Caribbean people in it, and yes, they are delusional. Non Blacks do not easily or readily distinguish between Blacks just because someone is lighter or darker. In short, to non Blacks will is Black everywhere, and if Caribbean people cannot process that it is MASS DELUSION based on SELF HATE.

People know what Black people look like ANYWHERE in the world.

Anywhere Will Smith goes, he is identifiable as BLACK. The Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa.
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,202 posts, read 1,577,785 times
Reputation: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I visited Brazil 30 years ago going to Rio and Salvador. These two cities have very different dynamics btw with Salvador proudly embracing its "Africanness".


I have spoken to people who have visited more recently, one even a few months ago. What has happened is that blacks (mainly Americans) have become more visible, both in the media and as visitors. This has been viewed by many "black" Brazilians who began to query what they were told about the "poor" black American.


Small highly vocal black empowerment groups emerged setting out to destroy the myth that racism didn't exist in Brazil. They joined with other Afro Latin groups to ensure that discussions of racism became more open. Lula and prior presidents attempted to address the issue of economic exclusion by "blacks" and a rising "black" middle class began to emerge, though I don't know the extent to which it exists with Brazil's recent economic difficulties.


But the adverse conditions that "black" Brazilians endure remain and most blacks still remain marginalized in ways even more severe than blacks in the USA.




I say "black" Brazilians because defining who is black in Brazil is harder than it is in the USA which is why affirmative action, problematic in the USA (does it mainly benefit the black upper middle class?) is even more so in Brazil. A white looking person can claim to be "black" by bringing a picture of his mulata grandmother. He benefits from affirmative action even though he doesn't suffer from the rampant implicit bias that a more obviously Afro descendant looking person will.


I also say "black" because no one really knows how many Afro descendants exist in Brazil as only those who look almost 100% black will admit to it, that is aside from those in the black empowerment movement, or in places like Salvador. So the tendency is to embrace everyone who doesn't identify as being "white" as being Afro descendant, even though most are more accurately described as mestizo. What I do know is Brazil isn't 50% afro descendant. Maybe 20%. if we go by those who show visible Afro ancestry.
I live here half the year and must say that you will be surprised...a lot of my "pardo" and "cafuso" friends here will openly claim blackness over anything else. Its also a cultural awakening. Brasileiros have always been in tune, maybe not as in depth as some would want, with the Afro-American experience thru different paradigms. You had the intellectual Afro Brazillian movement which was inspired by civil rights activists, you had the "Funk" or street movement which was and still is heavily influenced by Hip hop and surprisingly RnB, as well as other sub-groups.

Bahia is basically little Africa...I love it there. My girlfriend here in Rio was born in Salvador. Her and her parents still practice candomble. Rio is as you stated a little different vibe...but they do have a large movement here. It may not have been as visible to outsiders but thru sub-cultural mediums it has been around for a while. Im engulfed by it because I am into music and culture. For example, Samba is Brazillian but its roots are Afro Brazillian. Outside of "guest", the normal Rainha de Baterias are Afro Brazillian girls. Most of whom are from the Favelas.....these are the "exotic" women that dudes everywhere dream about.

And the country has even stated that about half of its population is "mistura" with African descent. Not trying to discredit your point but on the ground you quickly realize that some show it more than others

Last edited by SLIMMACKEY; 03-06-2019 at 12:53 PM..
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,202 posts, read 1,577,785 times
Reputation: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Are you going back just the two cities you visited, in determining that Brazil is 20% afro descendent? I'm not sure one visit 30 years ago can accurately define the demographics of an entire nation.

Being Black isn't really that hard to define in Brazil when they want to. When people apply for universities, they have to submit THEIR personal pictures to apply. Ditto for employment. There is no confusion on whether someone has African features anywhere in the world WHEN people want to be HONEST.

Of course, it would be interesting to here the perspectives of Black Brazilians or Black people who at least more recently spent significant time in Brazil.

Im not trying to discredit anyones POV, but to your point you are correct. I live in Rio 6 months out of the year. There is some truth to what both of you are saying. But yes, the country is at the very least 50% "mistura".
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Old 03-07-2019, 04:49 PM
 
691 posts, read 918,347 times
Reputation: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I didn't not stand up and define what % is black. I offered a TENTATIVE opinion as to what it might be, mainly to refute the notion that 53% is.


I also spoke with people who visited Rio as recently as 3 months ago to verify what changes had occurred. Aside from a heightened black identity movement and a SLIGHTLY larger "black" professional/management class (virtually non existent 30 years ago, not much has changed. One certainly doesn't see as many "blacks" in the media in professional roles in Brazil as one would see in the USA. Everyday on Bloomberg TV one can see blacks discussing capital markets. Its no longer seen as being noteworthy.


And yes who is black is hard to define when one leaves the USA. The only countries where Alicia Keyes will be black will be the USA and maybe Canada. In Jamaica she is a "browning", would injure you if you called her black. In Brazil if she with her money wants to call herself "white" she might well get away with it.


In Sub Saharan Africa Alicia Keyes will be seen as being "white" and they would struggle to understand why she wouldn't be. To them light skinned is Will Smith. At best she would be North African. What "African" features do Alicia Keyes or Mariah Carey have?


In fact affirmative action in Brazil illustrates the point.


A man looking like Donald Trump enjoys white privilege in Sao Paulo denied to a man looking like Obama. He then "manufactures" a black ancestor, which in Brazil mightn't be difficulty if his family goes back to the mid 19th C. Gets into college under affirmative action, then resumes his white privilege.


Will Smith has a double problem. He faces the stigma of being "black", but if he complains he would be told that he isn't "black" so he has no right to complain about how blacks are treated. He will NOT have the ability to get white privilege while still benefitting from affirmative action.
I find it interesting how Sub-Saharan Africans see "Black"...One SL friend explained to me about a mutual AA
friend we had who resembles Whitman Mayo AA who is light-brown with reddish hair and grey eyes, he said
in SL someone of that complexion would be considered "Bright". One Nigerian said when he first came to the
U.S. the appearance of many Black Americans thru him off as a MIS-MATCH. some had the color of Obasanjo BUT the features of Bill Clinton. and others the features of Obasanjo and the color of Bill Clinton.

I am the color of Nelson Mandela, one SL man called me "demiah" in Mende it means "son-in-law" and
"copper-colored-pot" so I think he nicknamed me his copper-colored son in law" as he was older than me. I had no idea why he just decided to call me that nickname. Most of the SL friends I had were dark-brown to
blue-black, few were Will Smith's complexion.
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Old 03-08-2019, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,554 posts, read 2,425,094 times
Reputation: 2738
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
CaribNY is certainly putting Caribbean people in it, and yes, they are delusional. Non Blacks do not easily or readily distinguish between Blacks just because someone is lighter or darker. In short, to non Blacks will is Black everywhere, and if Caribbean people cannot process that it is MASS DELUSION based on SELF HATE.

People know what Black people look like ANYWHERE in the world.

Anywhere Will Smith goes, he is identifiable as BLACK. The Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa.
Your post makes no sense. The discussion has little to do with Caribbean people yet you are intent on making assumptions about an entire region which contains significant variation in terms of racial perception.

And let’s be clear. No one said Will Smith is not black in the Caribbean.

Clearly you have personal issues with Caribbean people to the point that you feel the need to make false statements about people with no relation to you. Quite pathetic.
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Old 03-29-2019, 10:59 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,923,923 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Speaking with people means any information you have is second or third hand at best. You have no direct knowledge of modern Brazil. It doesn't mean that all you say is wrong, but you speak in such declarative terms as if you know these things for facts when you do not.

Proof that white people like Trump manufacture Black ancestors in order to get into university? Actual demonstrated proof. Not speculation, not gossip from your friends, but legitimate proof in the form of articles written by Brazilians who have documented this?

It is not hard to define who is Black when one leaves the US. Only delusional people in the Caribbean who have issues of self hate that issue.

In all the Spanish speaking countries I've been to, I, who am more or less Will Smith's color, have been consistently referred to as negro or moreno.

You have a lot of personal issues you tend to project on entire groups of people, and you speak in absolutist terms on these things.

You have not been to Brazil in 30 years and that was on vacation, so basically you are not an authority on Brazil. I too am not an authority in Brazil, as I have not been in many years either. But I'm not claiming to be the number one expert on all things concerning anything remotely connected to people of African descent.

Re: The 53 percent number, you don't have any data to support your refuting it. Essentially you have no idea of what you're talking about and are just running your mouth non stop.
In 2006 the Colombia census showed 11% as "Afro descendants". This was up from around 2% in the previous census. Did this population magically explode? No. It is how they asked the question that led to a different response. The first time they asked about "black". Few wanted to be described as such. The second time they included mixed categories that Colombians use that imply some level of African descent. They got 11%. And there are some who argue that the true number is actually closer to 25% but many lighter skinned mixed peoples whose Afro ancestry is not obvious prefer to fit into the broader mixed population.

You cannot use Bogota as a definition of black Colombia because Bogota isnt a "black space" in Colombia and in fact i have heard that it is one of the more racist parts of that country.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDNJoeSAAb8

This is a summary of a film that was made by PBS and you will find similar ones from other sources.



You come from a one drop culture so you see one drop wherever you go. The reality is that the USA is NOT really a one drop culture. Look at the current debate about Will Smith being used to play the role of Serena's father. Or abut Zoe Saldana playing Nina Simone. So even in the USA there isnt one monolithic definition of what being "black" is. There is rampant skin colorism and defensiveness as a result of this among black Americans. Even though in the USA the ODR forces all of this groups to fall under one umbrella.

So in Brazil where a black identity is weak (only 8% admit to being black) and where people are encouraged to negate their "blackness" why do you think that it will be easy to determine who is or isnt black? Most of the time it is "bad" to be black, but because racial identities in Brazil are more fluid, one could have claimed (or invented) a black great grand mother to benefit from affirmative action, hence the "who is consider black" theme of the PBS documentary.

Now as to my visiting Brazil. I am not Will Smith. I am more Malcom Warner, so in Brazil I KNOW what it is like to be darker. You see in the confusion of Brazil they will claim that I am not "black" (you have to be Wesley Snipes) but they will treat me as if I am black. So I had more microaggressions directed against me in Rio than I did in NYC in that era. You will also encounter some microaggressions but less than I would and poor Wesley Snipes would find life even worse.

So I have a baseline as to being black in Rio and in Salvador, the two cities that i have visited. So I can build from that baseline comments made by others who have been since. And I have spoken with both American and Caribbean blacks, so have received perspectives from people whose racial perspectives will differ.

when people make comments about Brazil I can see to what extent their comments align with the Brazil that I saw 30 years ago. Their assessment when I offer my perspective is that it has improved, but only marginally. And black Americans also have a tougher time attempting to understand weak "black identities" and also that phenotype matters in determining this identity and how one views "blackness".
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