Is Rapture really Bibilical? (tradition, godless, agnostic, evolve)

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Mike555

The rapture of the church is simply the removal of the church from the earth prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. The Second Advent of Christ takes place at the end of the Tribulation and prior to the beginning of the Millennial kingdom on the earth. Christ's reign during the Millennial kingdom is not the same as His eternal reign along with the Father and the Holy Spirit as the triune God.

Literature comprised of an imaginative narration.
Which suggests that it's without the basis of reality.

[Matthew 4:4]

Originally Posted by Marlbron

If you will experience rapture, why is it said that the meek will experience the earth?
Why did God create man on earth?
Why did Christ promise to come again?
Why did he talk about a physical kingdom as well as a spiritual kingdom?
Why did he pray for the kingdom to manifest on the earth?
On 1000 year reign
Why did he say his reign is everlasting, yet we claim 1000 year reign?
Is 1000 years same as everlasting?
Who is making the mistake? John the Divine, Christ or you?

If I may take the liberty to add that of course God's kingdom will exist forever, but Jesus hands back the kingdom to God at the end of his millennium-long day of reigning over earth. - 1st Corinthians 15 v 24.

Hands back to God because Jesus will have fulfilled God's promise to father Abraham that all families of earth and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the healing and curing of earth's nations.- Gen 12 v 3; 22 v 18; Rev. 22 v 2

[WatcherOH]

Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4

Thank you for your reply.

What are your thoughts about Revelation 22 v 2 ?__________

God made a promise to father Abraham that all families of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12 v 3 - and that all nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 22 v 18 - blessed with the healing and curing of Earth's nations - Rev. 22 v 2

In Eden there were two special trees. The ' tree of knowledge of good and bad ' that stood for the law of the land.
The other tree was the ' tree of life '. In Revelation [ which is a revealing of Earth's future ] we see the return of the ' tree or trees of life ' once again on Earth.

Jesus, as Messiah and King of God's kingdom for a thousand years over Earth, is the one who will undo all the damage that Satan and Adam brought up mankind - Rev. 21 vs 4,5. At the end of Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over Earth then Jesus hands back God's kingdom to God according to 1st Corinthians 15 v 24. Messiah's millennial reign will have accomplished God's will, or God's purpose for Earth which is an end to sickness and death on Earth.
- Isaiah 33 v 24; 25 v 8

Revelation 22:2 has 12 fruits and 12 months. The earth will know its fulness when the restored 12 tribes are reunited in the Land of Israel and all the 'nations' are blessed by God's Sovereign Rein from Jerusalem. The 2 trees are likened to the the Garden of Eden where man can choose the Way of God that leads to LIFE or the tree of his own knowing that leads to exile and death [which I have written about in different threads in this Christian Forum--the Suzerain Treaty--choosing LIFE or choosing DEATH].

Revelation 22 is likened to Ezekiel 17, speaking to the 10 Northern Tribes in a Parable:
“…speak a parable to the house of Israel [10 Lost Tribes of the Northern Dynasty]; and say, This says the Lord GOD; A great eagle with great wings, long-winged, full of feathers, which had divers colors… He took also of the seed of the land, and planted it in a fruitful field; he placed it by great waters, and set it as a willow tree… And it grew, and became a spreading vine of low stature, whose branches turned toward him, and the roots thereof were under him: so it became a vine, and brought forth branches, and shot forth sprigs. It was planted in a good soil by great waters, that it might bring forth branches, and that it might bear fruit, that it might be a goodly vine. This says the Lord GOD; Shall it prosper? Will he not pull up the roots thereof, and cut off the fruit thereof, that it wither? It will wither in all the leaves of her spring, even without great power or many people to pluck it up by the roots thereof…This says the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent: In the mountain of the height of Israel [Northern Tribes] will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree [lost 10 Tribes], have dried up the green tree [unrighteous nations], and have made the dry tree to flourish [Northern Dynasty that was lost among the ‘nations’ is now growing in her tribal allotments]: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.

[Marlbron]

Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4

If I may take the liberty to add that of course God's kingdom will exist forever, but Jesus hands back the kingdom to God at the end of his millennium-long day of reigning over earth. - 1st Corinthians 15 v 24.

Hands back to God because Jesus will have fulfilled God's promise to father Abraham that all families of earth and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the healing and curing of earth's nations.- Gen 12 v 3; 22 v 18; Rev. 22 v 2

I do not see it that way. Take it easy and look at 1Cor15 : 24 very carefully and ask for understanding.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When Jesus rules, God also rules, because both are one. The statement that he hands over the kingdom to the Father is made to show he has put down all earthly forces and declared victory. It is still his Father that gave him the victory and hence he has to hand everything to his Father so his Father is one and all. This does not in any way imply an interruption of his rule. Look at it more as a subordinate reporting to a superior on the completion of an assignment. The subordinate is still in his position....the throne of God and the Lamb are always mentioned in the Revelations! For clarity refer to Jesus' own statement about his coming in the synoptic gospels and look up Dan7:13, Dan 2:44.


The 1000 year reign actually happens but it happens in the heavenly realm not on earth. In the reference to it, John the Divine talked about seeings "souls", not men or humans as such.


now on Rev 22:2

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

It simply means that the Holy spirit reigns in the physical world and also in the spiritual world. One side of the river represents the physical, the other side the spiritual. On each side, the word of God, which comes from the throne of God is sacrosanct and the only way nations and peoples will walk or abide. The tree of life represents the Holy Spirit (The Godhead), the fruits and the leaves are the everlasting gospels now practised by all, whether as a physical being -man, or as a spirit being - angel.

[Matthew 4:4]

Since Pentecost the ' Israel of God ' is Not fleshly Israel but spiritual Israel the Christian congregation. Spiritual Israel has No boundaries or borders on any map, but is a spiritual nation which anyone on earth can become part of the Christian congregation.

Jerusalem above is now mother. It is now circumcision of the heart Not flesh.

- Galatians 4 v 26; 6 v 16; Romans 2 vs 28,29 ; 1st Peter 2 vs 9,5; Colossians 3 v 11

Fleshly Israel today by the grace of God exists as a national group and they like the rest can become converted to Christians.

[WatcherOH]

If we are able to state just ONE THING concerning the characteristics of GOD we might say: “God is Immutable”. We can say this because God has said this concerning himself.

Psalm 102:12, 25-28
But You, O LORD do abide forever; And Your Name to all generations…Of old you did found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Your Hands. Even they will perish, but You do endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end. The children of Your servants will continue, and their descendants will be established before You”

Malachi 3:66
For I, the LORD, do not change…”

Psalm 41:13
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting!

Psalm 119:89
For ever, O LORD, Your Word is settled in heaven. Your Faithfulness is to all generations: You have established the earth, and it abides. They continue this day according to Your Ordinances: for all are Your servants.

Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Ezekiel 24:14
I am the Lord. I have spoken; it shall come to pass; I will do it. I will not go back; I will not spare; I will not relent; according to your ways and your deeds you will be judged, declares the Lord God.”

James 1:17
Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow

To put it a different way…if GOD has created multiple Worlds, or many “cosmos” of which we are unaware we might, at the very least, say that GOD is the SAME in each and every one of these alternate “worlds”,

God’s Love, Mercy, Word, Anger, etc. would be the same in each World, because GOD does NOT change but His creation and creatures DO change.

So if GOD would be the same across ALL (hypothetical) worlds then HE would obviously be the same in this World. The changing of time WOULD NOT change GOD. GOD will not change in 2000 years, 6000 years or, as HE states, from Eternity to Eternity.

The challenge with GOD’S scripture is for us to understand an Immutable GOD working within His FINITE CREATION. GOD states His Ways are one way we might count on HIM not to change. GOD will NOT change HIS Ways or HIS Words anytime within our existence.

Our challenge is to take the Words of GOD and reconcile them so they are the SAME day after day. By this we DO NOT change the Word of GOD thereby changing GOD Himself. GOD IS THE SAME! He did not stop in the middle of His creation and “go a different direction”. HE did not change so HIS Word has not changed to us.

WE MUST reconcile ALL scripture to say ONE, Unified Message from “end to end”! When we make statements on “one side” of the Bible they have to completely align with the “other side” of the Bible or WE GOT IT WRONG. We are in error if we think GOD changed.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by WatcherOH

WE MUST reconcile ALL scripture to say ONE, Unified Message from “end to end”! When we make statements on “one side” of the Bible they have to completely align with the “other side” of the Bible or WE GOT IT WRONG. We are in error if we think GOD changed.

Great post
I agree with you about the immutability of God. Many people think it is OK to change the Word of God into a lie by saying that immoral behavior is overlooked, when God said in Heb. 10:26 that if we sin willfully after we receive the knowledge of the truth [which comes with the gift of the Holy Ghost which Peter says in Acts 5:32 that God gives to them that OBEY Him] there is no more sacrifice for sin. Many people in our day have changed the Word of God into a lie by saying that abortions, gay marriages, adultery and unbiblical divorces are OK in our day, but God does not change.
For more about having ONE unified message, check out my opening statement in my thread a couple of months ago entitled Are denominations in keeping with god’s will? Part II
Best wishes as we seek to know and DO the will of our heavenly Father,
Bob Prince

[Dave_n_Tenn]

If billions of people read the same thing ... how many will have exactly the same understanding? and if no one agrees who decides what's right or wrong?

The Bible is a "road map or a how to" book... not a encyclopedia. It's a road map that showes the straightest, best, most efficient way to get "there" and what to do along the way. Remember how we were taught in school?... we were tested on the dates of the events, not necessarily the spirit of the event.

We are trained in legalism. We are taught timelines. The Bible has very little of that. Smartest preacher I ever met had a 6th grade eduma-cation

"If'n you ain't livin' it you ain't believin' it. Son, y'all need to listen up... hard work is never easy".

[WatcherOH]

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

If billions of people read the same thing ... how many will have exactly the same understanding? and if no one agrees who decides what's right or wrong?

Common fallacy to believe that we, the read, get to decide what the text says. If I write love letters to my wife and in 50 years my children find the letters, read them, and each interpret its meaning differently they might ALL be wrong. Only I, the Author, get to determine it REAL meaning.

Translate that to the text of the Bible...we are ALL striving to understand the ONE True God...only HE determines both Content and Implication.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by WatcherOH

Common fallacy to believe that we, the read, get to decide what the text says. If I write love letters to my wife and in 50 years my children find the letters, read them, and each interpret its meaning differently they might ALL be wrong. Only I, the Author, get to determine it REAL meaning.
Another GREAT POST.
Translate that to the text of the Bible...we are ALL striving to understand the ONE True God...only HE determines both Content and Implication.

How true that is! One of my favorite passages is John 7:[16] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. [17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
I believe if our chief desire in life is to DO the will of our Father in heaven, we SHALL know if the doctrine is coming from God and not from man.
Jesus also said in Matt. 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
DOING the will of God is not a suggestion, but a commandment, ACCORDING TO OUR SAVIOR!! See 1John 2:[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. By the way, we cannot keep the Spirit of His words unless we are richly indwelt by the Holy Ghost, which Peter said in Acts 5:32 that God gives as a gift to those who OBEY Him.