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Old 04-07-2016, 01:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, ''we all'' would not.
Even I would be wise to listen to myself. LOL
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
We've had this discussion before Eusebius. I'll not go over it again with you. Ask Philo why he used 'aion' for what can only be understood as eternity. Oh wait. You can't. He's dead.
Funny, I never knew Philo wrote in English. He never used the word "eternal."
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
This is what God said---This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM.

Absolutely, no argument here. I hear Him just fine in what Eusebius shares. Of course, I also heard Him FIRST for myself in it, as I do any point before I consider it settled in my earth as it is in my heaven, so he's just one of many witnesses. Peace
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Old 04-07-2016, 02:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Jesus will rule during the thousand year reign in Israel. When that eon ends, the earth is destroyed and a New Earth comes and Christ rules also in the New Earth eon.

The kingdom Jesus had will be handed over the His Father when Christ quits reigning.
Right, the kingdom is eternal not finite. The Earth will never be destroyed. Ps 37:29 "The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it." Now the wicked on the Earth are to be removed but the planet is going nowhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I don't believe believers of the nations are rewarded with eonian life. It is gratuitously given, unearned.
You keep harping on a "limited life." How is an immortal and indissoluble life limited? Please answer me.
That was my question to you, if 'eternal' doesn't mean eternal in Greek then what becomes of the righteous?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
No, it is eonian chastening. Since eonian is derived from its noun form "eon" and since no eon is eternal, how can its adjectival form which tells us of that which pertains to the eon be eternal since the Bible says all the eons end? Please answer me.
Aion is not the same as aionion no matter what aionion's root word is. Like even though 'ever' is the root word of 'forever', 'forever' doesn't mean 'ever'.

If aionion is not eternal then look at all the places it is used and what would not be eternal. God power is not eternal, God is not eternal, His glory not eternal, Holy Spirit not eternal, redemption not eternal and salvation not eternal. If you change the word eternal in one place you have to change it everywhere.
  1. aion----age, world
    1. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1
  2. aionion, aionios----eternal
    1. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7)."
      1. Rom. 16:26--" . . . according to the commandment of the eternal God . . . "
      2. 1 Tim. 6:16--" . . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
      3. 1 Pet. 5:10--" . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
      4. Mark 3:29--" . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
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Old 04-07-2016, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Right, the kingdom is eternal not finite. The Earth will never be destroyed. Ps 37:29 "The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it." Now the wicked on the Earth are to be removed but the planet is going nowhere.
Psa 37:29 The righteous, they shall tenant the land, And they shall tabernacle on it for the future."



Quote:
That was my question to you, if 'eternal' doesn't mean eternal in Greek then what becomes of the righteous?
The proper question should be "if aionios doesn't mean "eternal" then what becomes of the righteous"? I already told you. The righteous put on immortality and incorruption. Don't you read my replies? So when the eons end, we keep on living.

Quote:
Aion is not the same as aionion no matter what aionion's root word is. Like even though 'ever' is the root word of 'forever', 'forever' doesn't mean 'ever'.
Just as "American" (adj.) is derived from "America" (n.) and that which is American pertains to America, and just as Heavenly (adj) is derived from "heaven" (n.) and tells us of that which pertains to Heaven, and so "Eonian" (adj.) is derived from "Eon" (n.) and tells us of that which pertains to the eon or eons as the case may be. In every example above, the adjective is not greater than its noun form.


Quote:
If aionion is not eternal then look at all the places it is used and what would not be eternal. God power is not eternal, God is not eternal, His glory not eternal, Holy Spirit not eternal, redemption not eternal and salvation not eternal. If you change the word eternal in one place you have to change it everywhere.
  1. aion----age, world
    1. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1
  2. aionion, aionios----eternal
    1. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7)."
      1. Rom. 16:26--" . . . according to the commandment of the eternal God . . . "
      2. 1 Tim. 6:16--" . . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
      3. 1 Pet. 5:10--" . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
      4. Mark 3:29--" . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
I have already answered those here:
Aion, Concept of Time
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:12 PM
 
741 posts, read 273,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Psa 37:29 The righteous, they shall tenant the land, And they shall tabernacle on it for the future."




The proper question should be "if aionios doesn't mean "eternal" then what becomes of the righteous"? I already told you. The righteous put on immortality and incorruption. Don't you read my replies? So when the eons end, we keep on living.



Just as "American" (adj.) is derived from "America" (n.) and that which is American pertains to America, and just as Heavenly (adj) is derived from "heaven" (n.) and tells us of that which pertains to Heaven, and so "Eonian" (adj.) is derived from "Eon" (n.) and tells us of that which pertains to the eon or eons as the case may be. In every example above, the adjective is not greater than its noun form.



I have already answered those here:
Aion, Concept of Time
God's power and Godship are eternal. Romans 1:20 is not addressed in that website. So no you didn't answer it.

Also, don't change my questions to what you think is proper and want to answer. That is why your replies are meaningless because they are answers to your own questions and not to mine.

Why isn't Satan and his demons described as living aionion, aionios?

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-07-2016 at 03:28 PM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
God's power and Godship are eternal. Romans 1:20 is not addressed in that website. So no you didn't answer it.
This verse is not about God but rather concerning Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!"

The verse before 6:16 talks about Christ being King of kings and Lord of lords. That has to do with reigning. So the honor and might has to do with His reigning over kings and lords. It is eonian or pertaining to the eon(s).

Eventually He gives up His reign to God.

God's power is imperceptible. The Greek word used is not aion nor aionios:

Rom_1:20 For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible [aidios] power and divinity, for them to be defenseless,

also:

Jud 1:6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible [aidios] bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."

Their bonds can't be eternal since they only last till their judging.

In Nathaniel Scarlett's translation of the Bible concerning Aidios, he wrote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius
on Jude 1:6 "unseen chains" . . .
"Most Lexicon writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever or always: but
it may have the same etemology as hades, which they derive from a
negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or
unknown. In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it
means unknown; because we see or know only a very small part of God's
power. The word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks: thus
Thucydides has this phrase--othen aidion (imperceptible)
misthophoran uparchein
, "from whence he expected a
perpetual salary." But this could only be a salary during his life: therefore
the word here in Thucydides means a period unknown; though it will
certainly end."



Quote:
Also, don't change my questions to what you think is proper and want to answer. That is why your replies are meaningless because they are answers to your own questions and not to mine.


Quote:
Why isn't Satan and his demons described as living aionion, aionios?
Maybe because Satan won't be enjoying eonian life since he will be in the abyss during the 1000 year reign.
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Old 04-07-2016, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Maybe because Satan won't be enjoying eonian life since he will be in the abyss during the 1000 year reign.
So it's maybe now? Is there a crack in the translation formula now? Why isn't aiōnion used to describe Satan's existence? Going to have to do better than maybe.

Lets compare some scriptures.

Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.”


Rev 20:10 "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Which one is not really forever? Because both use the same Greek wording forever and ever. But according to your translation formula Rev 20:10 is incorrect. If Rev 20:10 is wrong then so is Rev 5:13.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-07-2016 at 04:14 PM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I'm sure what I said in post #140 is perfectly clear. You have in post #122 quoted church fathers (including Jerome and Augustine) from the 4th-6th centuries and are trying to apply their statements to the beliefs of the 2nd century church. But as Irenaeus showed in his statement regarding the unity of the Faith of the church throughout the whole world, the dominant belief of the church in the 2nd century was that there were those who would experience everlasting judgment in contrast with those who would have everlasting glory. This of course means that Universalism was NOT a dominant belief in the 2nd century church. As well, I have also previously quoted from other 2nd century church fathers who held to the belief in eternal condemnation.

If everlasting judgment is not unending, then neither can everlasting glory be unending.

Now regarding what Augustine said in ''The Enchiridion,'' written after A.D.420, he writes the following;
112. It is quite in vain, then, that some—indeed very many—yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy." This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm.237 But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy,"238 those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, "Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment."239 Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: "But the righteous into life eternal."

Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Again, Augustine wrote concerning the beliefs of ''some - indeed very many'' during his time, and cannot be forced back into the beliefs of the 2nd century church which held more closely to the teachings of the apostles. And as Augustine stated regarding those of his time who did not believe in eternal punishment, they beliefs were based on their feelings.

The Bible is quite clear that in contrast to those who have eternal life, there are those who will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on them (John 3:36).

As to whether 'aion' or any of its derivatives can ever refer to what we call 'eternity,' we have Philo's use of the word with regard to what can only be understood as 'eternity,'

en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. - In eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.

With regard to Philo's statement,
This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal.

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal
No, the Bible does not teach Universalism. And while it is God's desire that all men be saved, He made man's volition the issue in whether or not a person will come to Him through Jesus in order to have eternal life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
LOL . Of course Mike the English speaker reading a mistranslated Bible in 2016 is totally correct in his interpretation of the Bible , while the Greek church fathers who very plainly taught universal reconciliation didn't understand their own language . You bet .
And what snide remarks do you have for the many theologians who are well versed in the Greek language and can exegete from the Greek, and yet they hold that the Bible teaches eternal condemnation?

Quote:
Nor did you refute the points of Jerome or Augustine that a universalist view was widely held among Christians . Your best argument seems to be that a lot of early Christians simply chose to disbelieve the teachings of their priests in favor of their own emotions . Yeah, you bet .

You are in error. You are just too entrenched in your error to admit it . The Bible conflicts itself if your view is correct , as it says opposing things about the salvation of all men . Only universalism with corrective suffering allows an interpretation of the Bible that doesn't resort to cherry picking to get around the parts a reader doesn't like .
Refute? I quoted Augustine direct from the ''The Enchiridion,'' in post #151. But he was referring to believers of his time (the 4th and 5th centuries).

What you keep failing to acknowledge is that you are taking the remarks of church fathers from the 4th - 6th centuries and are trying to superimpose them on the 2nd century church. It has been made clear by Irenaeus that Universalism was not a dominant belief of the 2nd century church. I already posted what he said in post #140. The church in the 2nd century was closer to the apostolic teachings then the church was in the 4th century and later.

No, the Bible does not conflict itself as a result of its teaching of eternal condemnation. Nor does eternal condemnation impugn God's character.

Jesus' redemptive work on the cross made salvation possible for all men, and eternal salvation is offered to all men, but everyone is responsible for responding to the offer though faith in Christ Jesus. Man's volition is the most basic issue in the spiritual warfare which rages throughout human history. And God holds man responsible for his volitional choices, including his attitude toward the gospel message of salvation.

And that last remark of yours about having to cherry pick to get around parts of the Bible that the reader doesn't like can just as easily be made concerning those who hold to the belief in Universalism.
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Funny, I never knew Philo wrote in English. He never used the word "eternal."
This kind of ignorant remark is typical of you. What Philo wrote can only be understood as pertaining to what in English we call eternity.


All right. You Universalists, and this thread have taken up enough of my time. The majority of people who get sucked into the heresy of Universalism remain in that belief no matter what. And it's clear that you aren't going to listen to me.

Last edited by Mike555; 04-07-2016 at 06:44 PM..
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