Rodger Tutt's Combined Universalism Thread (heaven, eternal, Greek, grave)

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Mike555

And yet, I just quoted three Greek speaking early church fathers who understood the punishment of the wicked to be endless, without end, and therefore, eternal. The Bible makes a clear distinction between the eternally saved and the eternally lost.

Using your argument, eternal life doesn't mean eternal because Jesus didn't use the word aidios when He spoke of the righteous having eternal life as for example in Matthew 25:46. He used the word ζωὴν αἰώνιον - life eternal, unending. As in;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life (ζωὴν αἰώνιον)to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

In other words, Jesus used the word aiónios for unending life. ''They will never perish.'' It is therefore an invalid argument to claim that aiónios cannot refer to unending punishment.

You err not understanding the Scriptures.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Mike555

This is what it always and finally comes down to with you people. You can't defend your argument and so you end up resorting to comments and accusations like the above.

You have been shown that the Bible teaches eternal punishment. And you have been shown that Greek speaking early church fathers (they understood Greek) believed in eternal punishment which renders your argument that the early church fathers who knew Greek understood the Bible to be teaching Universalism, invalid.

Originally Posted by wallflash

We have been shown no such thing.

Yes, you have.

Your opinion seems to be that if any Greek fathers believed in eternal torment , that none believed in UR .

Since I have stated that there were those who did believe in Universalism, the above comment is obviously not true.

You have been shown otherwise . You have been shown numerous Greek fathers taught UR . You have been shown that most schools of theology in early Christianity taught UR . You have been shown that even eternal torment adherents admit the majority of Christians believed in UR . You have been shown that the Latins that created the belief in eternal torment through mistranslation fell into other errors as well like no forgiveness after salvation and unbaptized babies burning in Hell . You have been shown that your view cannot leave scriptures in the Bible as is but must explain them away to fit your preconceived theology. You have been shown that UR is not a new liberal heresy but an ancient teaching of the church .

In short, you have failed at every claim you make .You simply choose to stick your fingers in your ears, shout la la la can't hear you, and ignore everything presented to you . Jerwade showed your claims about the Greek to be in error . I have quoted numerous Greek fathers that plainly taught universalism . I have shown how you must alter scripture to maintain your belief .

Your view is too puny , but thankfully in error .

Being unable to adequately defend your views you resort to getting personal by making it about those who hold the belief. Neither you or Jerwade have shown my 'claims' about the Greek to be in error (simply refer to post #218). Since there were Greek speaking church fathers who maintained that eternal punishment is taught in the Bible, the claim can not be made that the early church fathers rejected eternal punishment based on the Greek. Those who did reject eternal punishment did so based not on the grammar, but for emotional and philosophical reasons.

You attempted to use Col. 1:20 and 1 Tim. 4:10 to defend Universalism, but as shown, they do not teach it.

[wallflash]

As believed by YOU, they do not teach it. You continually confuse the excuse you have created for yourself as actual fact. As understood without a bias and letting scriptures say what they say, clearly Col and 1 Tim teach universal salvation. Your objection does not matter in the least . YOU must offer long winded explanations for why ALL doesn't really men all , and why being the Savior of all men doesn't really mean Christ is the Savior of all men .

You alter scripture . Universalists do not .

And you have never shown that the Greek means eternal . Your entire excuse seems to be because some Greek fathers misunderstood the Bible, that misunderstanding makes the other Greeks wrong about UR . That is such a silly belief , but I guess that's the best you can do . Jerwade have you the Greek . You choose to reject it. It's your right to be wrong , but your claim you have not been shown otherwise is false . I don't have time right now but I will post more on this subject later to show the various Greek meanings of words often mistranslated eternal .

If UR were considered a heresy, Greek fathers who taught it would not be considered saints in the church . You accept a Latin view forced onto the church as a whole by a political ruler, not because the church at large accepted it . Those who believe in UR remain with the original teaching of the church .

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Mike555

You fail to realize (or acknowledge) that the Greek speaking early Church fathers had different beliefs. Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165); Irenaeus (?- c. A.D. 202); and Tertullian (c. A.D. 155-240) all spoke Greek, and all believed in eternal punishment.

Justin Martyr:

''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.''

THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN, CHAPTER XXVIII

''And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.''

THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN, CHAPTER CHAPTER VIII

''And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.''

THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN CHAPTER XXI

Justin Martyr equates everlasting punishment with unending duration.


Irenaeus:

thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,"

Against Heresies, Book 4 chap. 28, sect. 2

The punishment is not merely temporal, but is eternal. The damned or damned for as long as the blessed are blessed.


Tertullian:

''as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense.''

Tertullian, Apology. Chap. XVIII

The punishment for the wicked is unending, as opposed to the everlasting life of His worshippers.

It was already pointed out to you in post #140 that Universalism was NOT the dominant belief of the second century church. I will repost the proof which you chose to dismiss.

Against Heresies Book One.

Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 1 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Irenaeus says that the church was unified in its belief in a number of different doctrines, one of which was that the unrighteous went into everlasting fire in contrast with the righteous who went into everlasting glory.


No, the Bible does not teach Universalism. Again, it teaches a contrast between those who have eternal life, and those who will not see life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

It's plain, straight forward language in both Greek and English.

Mike, you really need to give what those people said in the Greek. They didn't speak English. Otherwise, the translator, who may be biased toward your opinion, may be translating their words to show unendingness when, after all, they never had such an idea.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Mike555

This is what it always and finally comes down to with you people. You can't defend your argument and so you end up resorting to comments and accusations like the above.

You have been shown that the Bible teaches eternal punishment. And you have been shown that Greek speaking early church fathers (they understood Greek) believed in eternal punishment which renders your argument that the early church fathers who knew Greek understood the Bible to be teaching Universalism, invalid.

And you have been shown that the Bible does not teach eternal punishment. Just because some English translator translated certain words from a Greek church father in which they gave those temporal words the idea of unendingness does not mean the Greek father meant those words to have an idea of unendingness.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used without beginning or end. However, it is not a reference to that which is Eternal (aidios), having no beginning or end. The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion) or eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (an age) kalasin (punishment - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with punishment.

I call that problematic?

Originally Posted by Mike555

Neither you or Jerwade have shown my 'claims' about the Greek to be in error ...

Whatever you desire to believe, but you have been taught in error.

[wallflash]

Another in depth explanation of Greek for Mike.



In the New Testament, the word eternal is translated from three Greek words—those words are aidios, aionios and aion.
In the Old Testament we see several words translated as everlasting or eternal, but the main one of focus is the Hebrew word olam.
AIDIOS
The first word, and by the far the most simple to understand is the Greek word aidios.
The definition aidios from Strong’s Concordance is as follows:
aidios: everlasting
Original Word: ἀΐδιος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aidios
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-id'-ee-os)
Short Definition: eternal
Definition: eternal, everlasting.1
It is plain to see that the word aidios unquestionably means eternal and should be translated as eternal or everlasting in all translations of the Bible.
Interestingly enough, this word occurs only twice in the entire New Testament. In Romans:
Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made…2
As well as in Jude:
And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day.3
If this word, that unquestionably means eternal or everlasting only occurs twice in the entire Bible, and never refers to the afterlife, you might be wondering what other words get translated as eternal.
Read on to find out.

AION
The definition of aion as put forth by Strong’s Concordance is as follows:
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.4
From Strong’s concordance we see a fairly simple definition.
Strong’s immediate definition (next to the word) is a space of time or an age.
This is easy enough to understand, especially when we consider that the English word eon is actually derived from the Greek word aion.
The short definition says it slightly differently, but with the same idea, as an age or a cycle of time.
Finally, the long definition adds in the fact that it usually is contrasting this age to a future one and one of a series of ages stretching into infinity.
Therefore, it’s clear that this word aion has no reference at all to eternity excepting that it refers to an age that is one of a series of ages contained within eternity.
Therefore to translate the word aion into eternal, everlasting, forever or any similar word is irresponsible not to mention misleading.
Yet, of the many times that aion occurs in the Greek, the NASB translates this word in the following ways:
age (20), ages (6), ancient time (1), beginning of time (1), course (1), eternal (2), eternity (1), ever (2), forever (27), forever and ever (20), forevermore (2), long ago (1), never (1), old (1), time (1), world (7), worlds (1).
As you can see it’s translated as eternal, eternity, forever, forever and ever and forevermore a total of 52 times!
That’s over half of the occurrences translated incorrectly.

Strong’s Concordance doesn’t even hint at eternity in its definition of the word.
One also has to wonder how this simple word aion gets translated as both ―forever‖ and ―forever and ever‖. The translators have clearly added words in this case where they do not even exist.

So, let’s look at the definition of aionios.
AIONIOS
Again from Strong’s Concordance, here is the definition of aionios:
aiónios: agelong, eternal Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: aiónios Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os) Short Definition: eternal, unending Definition: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.6
This definition is a little more confusing.
The immediate definition says agelong or eternal.
This is odd because we know that an age is not eternal; these two definitions do not fit together.
The definitions of this word are strange. The short definition gives us eternal or unending.
The long definition, (which on the previous word aion was the same as the short but with added clarification) actually starts out with age-long again.
It then goes on to say that it’s practically eternal. While practically eternal may be a long time, it is certainly not the same thing.

The last part sums it up as partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age.
When we see the immediate definition and the long definition, it becomes apparent that age-long is the most accurate definition, especially considering the fact that we already know that aion, its root word, means an age.
When we consider the fact that aion is a noun and aionios is an adjective this further points to age-long as the correct definition.
For even more evidence of this, see this excerpt from the HELPSTM Word Study:
Cognate: 166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age); (figuratively) the unique quality (reality) of God's life at work in the believer, i.e. as the Lord manifests His self-existent life (as it is in His sinless abode of heaven).7
You can see that this not only further validates my point that aionios refers to age-long, but also shares a similar quality with aion in that it describes the quality of a given age.
Remember also that the HELPSTM Word Study on aion actually refers to ainios which it calls age-long.
HELPSTM Word Study further elaborates:
[166 (aiṓnios) does not focus on the future per se, but rather on the quality of the age (165 /aiṓn) it relates to. Thus believers live in "eternal (166 /aiṓnios) life" right now, experiencing this quality of God's life now as a present possession. (Note the Gk present tense of having eternal life in Jn 3:36, 5:24, 6:47; cf. Ro 6:23.)]8
Interestingly, it’s stated that this aionios life is experienced right now and notes the present tense of various verses including John 3:36:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life…9
These resources, Strong’s Concordance and the HELPSTM Word Studies are written by far more intelligent and scholarly individuals than myself.
After I read these sources and these definitions, as well as the definition of aion, it became abundantly clear to me that this word should always be translated as something akin to age-long and yet in most popular Bible translations it’s always translated as eternal, eternity, forever and other similar words.
I find it both misleading and, frankly, insulting that the authors felt the need to use a secondary definition of aionios throughout the entire Bible and not even provide the courtesy of a footnote.

GREEK SUMMARY FOR ETERNAL
While the word aidios literally means eternal or everlasting, the words aion and aionios are clearly meant to refer to an age or a quality or description of an age – not eternal.
If you’re still not convinced, consider this stunning fact:
Of the estimated 9 to 15 authors of the New Testament, every single one of them uses the word aionios in every verse that refers to the afterlife.
Why would all of the authors choose to use this word instead of aidios which so clearly means eternal?
Most perplexing of all, in the book of Romans, Paul uses the word aidios when describing God’s eternal power.
Ever since the creation of the world his eternal [aidios] power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse.10
In the very next chapter of Romans, however, he uses aionios to describe the afterlife.
To those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal [aionios] life.11
Clearly, this illustrates that it was not simply Paul’s preference to use aidios instead of aionios to mean eternal. Instead, this points to the fact that these words have two different meanings.
If this word aionios actually means age-long, then it has pretty serious implications about the afterlife and particularly punishment in the afterlife. It denotes a finite duration, that may be a long period and even be practically eternal, but there is a big difference between practically eternal and actually eternal.
At this point, a question is bound to arise on the subject of Heaven: ―Are there verses which also use the word aionios?‖ The answer is yes, because they refer to Heaven in its current temporary form.
While some are bound to be punished, there will also be those who are to be rewarded for an age. Though highly speculative, the Bible seems to indicate in Revelation that martyrs of the Christian faith are among those who will be in the current Heaven for an age.
When I say ―current Heaven‖, I am saying this because Revelation speaks of a New Heaven, but this will be expanded upon more in later chapters.
While some may speculate that aionios could mean eternal or everlasting, I think that the message is clear in the Bible. If every author chose to use this word instead of aidios (which is infinitely clearer) when referring to the afterlife, then I can’t chalk that up to an oversight of the authors.
They deliberately avoid the word aidios when referring to the afterlife because other religions were
preaching eternal or aidios punishment – and these authors did not want their ideas of the ages to come mixed up with pagan ideas of eternity.

[Eusebius]

Jerwade wrote:

If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used without beginning or end. However, it is not a reference to that which is Eternal (aidios), having no beginning or end. The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion) or eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (an age) kalasin (punishment - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with punishment.

Not only that but Jesus told His disciples to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees. The Pharisees taught eternal conscious torment and the Sadducees taught eternal destruction. Jesus taught neither. Mike just hasn't yet learned to cast off the Pharisaic torment system yet, but one day he will.

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Jerwade wrote:


Not only that but Jesus told His disciples to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees. The Pharisees taught eternal conscious torment and the Sadducees taught eternal destruction. Jesus taught neither. Mike just hasn't yet learned to cast off the Pharisaic torment system yet, but one day he will.

There is no life in death. Jesus taught---those who walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by kjw47

There is no life in death. Jesus taught---those who walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed.

"---those who walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed" . . . until they are saved.

If you believe destruction is the final end for those people, then you are believing like a Sadducee which Jesus told us to avoid.