Not all Christians are going to Heaven (sexuality, Biblical, grace)

[brianrees]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Northsouth

Your psychological training has no worth or value in the kingdom of God. My IQ is 160...what's yours? See how petty and meaningless that is? What you perceive as a non-Christian is distorted by the forces of darkness, whether you acknowledge that or not. And btw, I inflicted WAY more harmful things on myself living for myself rather than God. I have peace that you do not have and I know this because I have been where you are.

Where exactly am I then, please tell me?

Before you do, allow me to say a little about myself, my supposed lack of peace, and especially my dark ways.

I have self-respect, work tirelessly for charity, run a home where everyone is made welcome, respect everyone who comes my way, rescue abandoned animals, pay my taxes and have a reputation for being an excellent listener when people are in trouble. But chiefly I have endless time for ALL people. But I never force my views on anybody, finding an open mind to be the best guide in life.

OK, I'm not inspired by an Invisible Force of any kind, and expect no reward in an afterlife.

You ask me where you are being offensive - just look to your own words above - far more offensive than anything I wrote.

Oh no, I was abusing myself without Christ. My health, mentally and physically is of no comparison to how close I came to death, several times, before Christ. He literally saved my life, as well as saved me from eternal damnation.

Well maybe, if that is how you see it. But don't alienate your fellow human-beings in the process, you might need their comfort and support, too, one day.

I fear for you my friend, no need to fear for me.

Well, thanks, but you needn't. There is no hell, and I'm not going there!

Interesting. When did homosexuals become able to reproduce? Must have missed that. God said homosexuality is an abomination, I am just the messenger.

And I thought you said you weren't being offensive! ...I am a gay man - therefore I am an abomination in the eyes of your god?

Well see if I care. I have love for my fellow beings on this planet in abundance, and that counts more to me, sorry. Nobody can take that away from me, so please don't belittle my efforts to lead a worthy life.

Once again, not my "view". It's the Holy Word of God, the Bible, that teaches this.

Do you have any views of your own, or do you always hide your prejudices behind a crotchety old man in the sky?

Yes, deny and abstain from anything that God says you should. And I am proof positive that there is a perfect amount of Bible study and prayer that will help you deny and abstain.

Well, I hope you find it was all worth it if someday your faith deserts you, and you are forced to come back to reality. (It can happen, I'm afraid).

Oh yes, I know. Different views and such. Where did I say that I didn't respect others? I am only intolerant of the things that God says we should not do. I am a loving, caring individual that embraces everyone, but I will talk incessantly about what God has done for me.

Oh, I'm sure you do talk incessantly, but have you ever tried listening once in a while?

Please show where I was condemning.

I think I've already done that.

Responsible sex is between one man and one woman in the confines of marriage. That's it.

There you go again!

I should hate you to go back to your old sinful ways, but as you are now nearing perfection in The Lord - remember that a little humility goes a long way, and that us lesser mortals don't really enjoy having to apologise for what are only sins in the eyes of your god. To me, your god, the way you portray him, is a BLIGHT ON YOUR HUMANITY.

[Towhee]

Before I was baptized into Christ all sorts of bad things happened to me....not because I went out looking for them, but because I was often in the wrong place. As Northsouth said, God has forgiven me for all, but I do have a problem forgetting all that happened. I wish I had become a Christian long before I did, and I may have, if a high school classmate, and close friend, had invited me to worship with her and her family. They were long time members at the very congregation where I finally learned what I needed to do to be cleansed and free of my sins. She had moved far away at that time. We finally got back together recently....but that is another story.
How very much misery I could have avoided if I had been a member of the Lord's church when I was a teen. I would have had the friendship of Christians, instead of all the ungodly people that I got mixed up with.

Thank God that is all in the past. And thank God my husband is a member of the church also.

I have never ever regretted my decision to obey Christ, and to continue faithful to Him.

[Northsouth]

[quote=brianrees;5795292][quote]

Where, then, exactly am I, please tell me?

You're on the broad path.

Before you do, allow me to say a little about myself, my supposed lack of peace: and my dark ways.

I have self-respect, work tirelessly for charity, run a home where everyone is made welcome, respect everyone who comes my way, rescue abandoned animals, pay my taxes and have a reputation for bring an excellent listener when people are in trouble. But chiefly I have endless time for ALL people. But I never force my views on anybody, finding an open mind to be the best guide in life.

I'm sure you are a person that I would like very much. But you seem to be confusing what I say with what God says. I am simply the messenger. I'll be completely honest, Brian. If it were up to me, everyone would go to heaven. But it's not up to me and it's not what the Bible says. As far as your good works....they are dead without faith. Your good works will not get you into heaven.

OK, I'm not inspired by an Invisible Force of any kind, and expect no reward in an afterlife.

You say you had Christian parents. What happened? Did they not embrace your lifestyle so you turned against God? You shouldn't blame your parents for remaining faithful to God and honoring His commandments. I'm sure they still loved you very much. We must take that first step of faith, Brian. You can and should expect a reward of an eternity in heaven if you accept Jesus as your Savior and deny your lifestyle and other sins. You will never be able to justify your choice to be homosexual to God, and He is the one you will be answering to for it.

You ask me where you are being offensive - just look to your own words above - far more offensive than anything I wrote.

No, no no, no. I asked you where I had been condemning. My relaying what God expects from us to you is in no way offensive or condemning. It's fact, based on what God's Word says. I personally have not condemned, insulted or offended you. You may be offended by God and His Word, but you'll have to take that up with Him.

Well maybe, if that is how you see it. But don't alienate your fellow human-beings in the process, you might need their comfort and support, too, one day.

Huh? Who have I alienated? Ok. I can see that you are very defensive and obviously just want to argue and somehow be able to justify your lifestyle to someone. Your responses just go downhill from here. God wants you to spend all of eternity with Him. You know what needs to be done to be able to do that, and nothing else I can say will matter. I don't want to argue or go on and on about this, so we'll just leave it at that. If you ever have any questions or just want to talk about your situation, feel free to dm me. God does indeed love you, and so do I.

[supermom0204]

[quote=brianrees;5795292]

Where exactly am I then, please tell me?

Before you do, allow me to say a little about myself, my supposed lack of peace, and especially my dark ways.

I have self-respect, work tirelessly for charity, run a home where everyone is made welcome, respect everyone who comes my way, rescue abandoned animals, pay my taxes and have a reputation for being an excellent listener when people are in trouble. But chiefly I have endless time for ALL people. But I never force my views on anybody, finding an open mind to be the best guide in life.

OK, I'm not inspired by an Invisible Force of any kind, and expect no reward in an afterlife.

You ask me where you are being offensive - just look to your own words above - far more offensive than anything I wrote.



Well maybe, if that is how you see it. But don't alienate your fellow human-beings in the process, you might need their comfort and support, too, one day.



Well, thanks, but you needn't. There is no hell, and I'm not going there!



And I thought you said you weren't being offensive! ...I am a gay man - therefore I am an abomination in the eyes of your god?

Well see if I care. I have love for my fellow beings on this planet in abundance, and that counts more to me, sorry. Nobody can take that away from me, so please don't belittle my efforts to lead a worthy life.



Do you have any views of your own, or do you always hide your prejudices behind a crotchety old man in the sky?



Well, I hope you find it was all worth it if someday your faith deserts you, and you are forced to come back to reality. (It can happen, I'm afraid).



Oh, I'm sure you do talk incessantly, but have you ever tried listening once in a while?



I think I've already done that.



There you go again!

I should hate you to go back to your old sinful ways, but as you are now nearing perfection in The Lord - remember that a little humility goes a long way, and that us lesser mortals don't really enjoy having to apologise for what are only sins in the eyes of your god. To me, your god, the way you portray him, is a BLIGHT ON YOUR HUMANITY.

To comment on your "abomination" reference. It is my understanding that it is the sin that is the abomination. Hate the sin, not the sinner. If God hated the sinner, than I would too be an abomination, as I too am a sinner. I believe that God views my sins as an abomination, but loves me as His child.

[Northsouth]

Originally Posted by Marianinark

Before I was baptized into Christ all sorts of bad things happened to me....not because I went out looking for them, but because I was often in the wrong place. As Northsouth said, God has forgiven me for all, but I do have a problem forgetting all that happened. I wish I had become a Christian long before I did, and I may have, if a high school classmate, and close friend, had invited me to worship with her and her family. They were long time members at the very congregation where I finally learned what I needed to do to be cleansed and free of my sins. She had moved far away at that time. We finally got back together recently....but that is another story.
How very much misery I could have avoided if I had been a member of the Lord's church when I was a teen. I would have had the friendship of Christians, instead of all the ungodly people that I got mixed up with.

Thank God that is all in the past. And thank God my husband is a member of the church also.

I have never ever regretted my decision to obey Christ, and to continue faithful to Him.

Amen, Marian!! God always has our best interests at heart, if we will simply let HIM have control of our lives!

[grannynancy]

Brian, not all people who claim in their deepest heart to be Christians believe in such judgement. I will be honest, I have not studied the Bible as I should on this topic other than knowing some of the homosexuality that was condemed were specific pagan practices.

Any thing I say on this thread will not be met with on open eye as the overwhelming majority of the respondents are literalist fundamentalists and do not accept other [ even very mainstream and ancient ] understandings of the Bible.

I have some friends who are homosexual and in committed relationships and I feel in my heart that what they are doing is not an abomination to God. I know my own Church struggles to make sense of it and must do so mindful of properly interpreting God's direction, and ministering appropriately to the gay communit

At least this link [yes it is a Wiki] lists practices of major congregations on the topic which may help in finding an accepting community to explore your faith:

I can agree with Northsouth that in this faith, doing good works and living a good life do not merit salvation - though a person filled with the Spirt of God will do good works as it is in them. Every last one of us has fallen short of the glory of God and that is ok. God loves us and redeems us.

List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[yhwhshalomjr]

[quote=grannynancy;5796224]

I have some friends who are homosexual and in committed relationships and I feel in my heart that what they are doing is not an abomination to God. I know my own Church struggles to make sense of it and must do so mindful of properly interpreting God's direction, and ministering appropriately to the gay communit

That is one reason that NorthSouth made it clear in his post that this lifestyle
is walking in the " broad path"
The one that lead to destruction, according the Holy and Authoritative word of God; No way around it.......whether we agree or not
God Bless You

[brianrees]

supermom0204;5795925]

To comment on your "abomination" reference. It is my understanding that it is the sin that is the abomination. Hate the sin, not the sinner. If God hated the sinner, than I would too be an abomination, as I too am a sinner. I believe that God views my sins as an abomination, but loves me as His child.
To comment on your "abomination" reference. It is my understanding that it is the sin that is the abomination. Hate the sin, not the sinner. If God hated the sinner, than I would too be an abomination, as I too am a sinner. I believe that God views my sins as an abomination, but loves me as His child.

Thanks for what is clearly kindly-meant (I think).

It is now 3.30. am. on our side of the pond, and debating with NorthSouth has used up all my remaining energy. So I'll be as concise as I can in answering you.

Believe me, I am familiar with the argument you present, I have encountered it many times. Even so, I fail to understand the implications of it in relation to how I see myself, and others like me. All I know is, that terrible word 'abomination' never fails to offend, and deeply too.

You must believe me when I say that I do not want to be other than I am - not out of complacency because I have my share of faults - but because I have worked relentlessly on my character all my life, and if I thought there was an element of abomination in it I would have tried to eradicate it long ago.

I have nephews and nieces whom I love dearly, and if I say they all adore me I am only quoting their parents. To me, children are no bad judges of character, so despite NorthSouth's insinuation that I am concerned to 'justify' myself - I will go on living by my intuition and conscience until I see a need to change.

I'm sorry if you feel that my present way of life is based on sin: not so. There is no judgemental God in my world, I have lived through all that. To me the world is still a beautiful place, I am thankful to Nature for her supreme beauty, I am never happier than when I'm tending my garden, and the friendship of other people brings me as much joy as it does to you.

But when my time comes, I know I shall have to leave all this behind, and face oblivion having, hopefully, succeeded in making the most of my time on this planet.

This may not be enough for you and NorthSouth, maybe it all sounds pointless. All I can say is, I WOULD HAVE IT NO OTHER WAY. Living for eternity is a meaningless concept for me, as I know I should hate it, even in heaven, thinking of all the wretched souls who went to the other place to be tormented. How could you possibly live with the cruelty of that?

Thanks again --and so to bed!

--Brian.

[brianrees]

[quote]supermom0204;5794435]

Originally Posted by Northsouth

Interesting. When did homosexuals become able to reproduce? Must have missed that. God said homosexuality is an abomination, I am just the messenger.

Evolution should start kicking in soon, then homosexuals will be able to reproduce, right? -- Supermom.

Supermom.

A serious thought for you to ponder on....

The general impression you give is that you define yourself as much by whom you DESPISE as by whom you profess to love. Very sad.

I have followed threads such as this one long enough to realise how important it is for you and and your friends to have a common enemy to take swipes at. In this instance it is gay people, as your cheap remark (above) demonstrates. I don't think you should be proud of such flippant taunts, and I'll you why.

If you ask me, I will send you some harrowing pictures taken recently in Iran which show two innocent-looking teenage boys being roughly hung in a public arena. They look so young, they are barely out of childhood, and the tears on their cheeks show their terror. One of them hadn't even grown into the shoes that were dangling from his feet.

And what was their crime? They were unlucky enough, apparently, to be reported to the religious police for an 'indecent' sexual act together. (not specified). They were 16 and 17 years old!!!

Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that had you been present at such shocking barbarity you might have been forced to re-evaluate your hateful prejudices, and realised where they can lead.

Don't tell me that this was done by a different religion to yours, that makes not the slightest difference to my argument. These children were executed in the name of the SAME god as you worship, the god of the Koran being none other than the god of the Bible, the god of Abraham, if you know anything about your sister faith. The same laws were being acted on.

No doubt you will want to refute this, saying that you don't approve of going so far as to actually murder gay people -- at least I hope you (and your friend NorthSouth) don't.

Therefore, the next time I read this thread, I will be overjoyed too see you have modified your attitude a little, especially as you say you are a mother yourself. All you have to do is put your feet in the shoes of the mothers of the two boys that were so mercilessly dragged away to be hung before their lives had really started. Would you find it in your heart to tell these two traumatised women that it was the WILL OF GOD? -- Probably not. But then, you are only his messenger, as you say.

I rest my case.

ps. With the planet we live on already groaning under the weight of 6 billion people, many of them starving, I feel rather disinclined to apologise for not 'reproducing' - under the circumstances. Evolution has always produced a certain percentage of gay people throughout the centuries, and will continue to do so regularly whether you like it or not, (at least it's a sensible way of population-control).

So I suggest that you stop this pointless fretting over the whole thing, get on with your life, and allow us gay people to get on with ours. We may not swell the population figures, but we do have a unique contribution to make to society, as any less prejudiced person would admit. So to hang or stone us all would only leave the world a drearier place. But then, I suppose you would immediately start looking for some other minority to harass.

Think this through before you post your next clever insult.

[Fundamentalist]

[quote=brianrees;5795292]

Where exactly am I then, please tell me?

Before you do, allow me to say a little about myself, my supposed lack of peace, and especially my dark ways.

I have self-respect, work tirelessly for charity, run a home where everyone is made welcome, respect everyone who comes my way, rescue abandoned animals, pay my taxes and have a reputation for being an excellent listener when people are in trouble. But chiefly I have endless time for ALL people. But I never force my views on anybody, finding an open mind to be the best guide in life.

Ah...well I see. You think your a "good" person because you don't see OUR (your) need for forgiveness because of pride. Brainrees seriously, why are you here? I don't mind you being here but you must be searching even though your a person who claims he is not.

(Luke 18-19)
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good -- except God alone......"

(1 Peter 5:5)
“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.....”