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Many moons ago, on another planet, was a guy whose first name is Old. This is what the Old "saint" once told me....you post and I will tell you whether it is right or wrong. Of course, Birdbrain was always wrong and Old ?, was always right. Old is still always right, & poor Birdbrain continues to be always wrong.
I think there are several points to consider, I often hear about unitarian universalists, I have actually no idea who these people are (I'm German).
The problem I see in Germany, that there are many Christians who unscripturally defend universalism. Many of them use new revelations like the German Mystic Lorber, similar like Sadhur Sundha Singh etc., Johannes Greber, a former Catholic, there was a connection between him and the Jehovah Witnesses
of course these all were occultists in my opinion, they all taught hell, but final salvation of all (Singh, Lorber, Greber).
you find few people who scripturally defend universalism, there are some very conservative evangelicals who teach universalism, I've read recently an article of a (German) Evangelical universalist, supporting the death penalty as a just and scriptural punishment, other universalists believed in a thousands of years of a literal hellfire, these men were no liberals.
but the liberal, scripturally unsound and "occultists" who teach universalism, they put the biblical universalists in a bad light, many universalists are the most conservative Christians you can imagine, the Concordant publishers for example, almost belive in the inspiration of every single word in the bible, they use not Plato as authority to claim aión means eternity or the Talmud to claim geenna means hell, they see scripture as authority alone while many support the doctrine of hell with apocryphal writings and near death experiences and extra biblical sources.
I think there are several points to consider, I often hear about unitarian universalists, I have actually no idea who these people are (I'm German).
The problem I see in Germany, that there are many Christians who unscripturally defend universalism. Many of them use new revelations like the German Mystic Lorber, similar like Sadhur Sundha Singh etc., Johannes Greber, a former Catholic, there was a connection between him and the Jehovah Witnesses
of course these all were occultists in my opinion, they all taught hell, but final salvation of all (Singh, Lorber, Greber).
you find few people who scripturally defend universalism, there are some very conservative evangelicals who teach universalism, I've read recently an article of a (German) Evangelical universalist, supporting the death penalty as a just and scriptural punishment, other universalists believed in a thousands of years of a literal hellfire, these men were no liberals.
but the liberal, scripturally unsound and "occultists" who teach universalism, they put the biblical universalists in a bad light, many universalists are the most conservative Christians you can imagine, the Concordant publishers for example, almost belive in the inspiration of every single word in the bible, they use not Plato as authority to claim aión means eternity or the Talmud to claim geenna means hell, they see scripture as authority alone while many support the doctrine of hell with apocryphal writings and near death experiences and extra biblical sources.
But the question remains, if you believe in unlimited atonement how can you believe in any existence of hell whether it is eternal or not?
Remember I love everyone here so please be civil even though you believe this to be heresy. I am still your brother in Christ who is only guilty of professing truth. I ask you to have an "open mind" of truly searching for truth in scripture like the Bereans
Many in here have become dismayed with the direction of this forum. I on the other hand have grown excited to see that this room is starting to dig deeper into theology. There have been many threads on universalism debates in which I deliberately stayed out-moreso debated God's sovereignty with them. A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ, I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".
Over the past few months I have been reading the universalists vs Arminianism teaching dealing with salvation and I must say, the universalist are making more sense than many of you and it is no fault of your own, it is because you have been taught in somehow connecting something that is disconnected - I was too as well as many universalists; primarily, "the atonement", the church which is heavily influenced in Arminianism says, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that He died for all the sinners because He loves them and wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus death made it possible for others to gain access to salvation if only they repent and put their trust in Him, that is the popular belief most of you were taught and embrace except universalists but if you honestly and fairly look at it, universalist have a valid point because it really doesn't make sense. If you believe in an unlimited atonement (that Jesus died for the whole world, every human being; past, present and future) then you have to be a "universalist" when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, it means the debt was paid in full for every human being; hell makes no sense because there are people in hell whose sins Jesus died for the same way there are people in heaven? so Jesus died for your sins the same way he died for the sins of the people who are burning in eternal torment? Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense. Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?
On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven, that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"
I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract
Arminianism at least has some basis in scripture. I'm sorry..but the whole "all are saved" garbage is pure heresy.
svenM, good points.
You know when Fundamentalist's stand is suffering when he asks for us to
defend our views yet when I do he ignores my post. I wonder why that is
svenM, good points.
You know when Fundamentalist's stand is suffering when he asks for us to
defend our views yet when I do he ignores my post. I wonder why that is
I am sorry but your post made no sense to me. Can't defend something I don't understand. I am talking about limited atonement vs unlimited atonement. Your question skipped the process and went straight to the end. How does your belief harmonize with unlimited atonement?
But the question remains, if you believe in unlimited atonement how can you believe in any existence of hell whether it is eternal or not?
I will explain how I see things.
The wages of sin is death, not everlasting torment, death was threatened to Adam and Eve and actually happened. For me death is literal death and not life in seperation from God or something like that.
Jesus died to save men from death, from utter desctruction, the blackest darkness of total annihilation, the idea of annihilation is almost more terrible than the idea of hell for some people.
But since Christianity believes in immortal soul, there is no death any longer, Jesus no longer came to save mortal men from eternal death, but immortal souls from everlasting torment, however the bible does not support this view in my opinion.
I think the idea of universalism has the notion of purgatory for many, but it is not about heaven or hell, but life and death.
men are not saved by purgatory but are brought to repentance by judgment I would say or simply by God's will (just as Paul), Jesus died for all men, he defeated death, I believe there will be punishment on Judgment day, everyone according to his works, that means limited punishment, otherwise Hitler would suffer the same punishment as his victims.
hell is the grave and will deliver it's dead, and death is defeated, but not all are right for the world to come and must be judged and set right.
I hope it makes sense.
Quote:
How does your belief harmonize with unlimited atonement?
I would say, Jesus saved men from eternal death, but men will reap what they saw, as no mortal being can saw infinitely, the harvest must be finite as well.
I'm sorry..but the whole "all are saved" garbage is pure heresy.
Dear St. Paul, you would be advised to revise your "garbage."
"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."
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Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense. Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?
