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Tiget, ANY form of Calvinism is, inherantly, not reasonable or logical. Sorry. That's why I can't see your position...because as I've said, the differences between various forms of Calvinism are just semantics.
Even in your previous post, you still maintain that people are volunteering to go to hell (even if they don't realize it ) and that they would still choose this if hell and heaven were made literally real to them in this life. That is simply NOT reasonable or logical!
I don't get where you are going with the mercy vs. justice question. I don't believe that they are seperate things, and therefore want both, and furthermore will get both--whether I want them or not. God's justice is tempered by His mercy.
So? Perhaps the Calvinist's to whom you refer are all hyper-Calvinist's or hold to the view of equal ultimacy. What does that have to do with me?
As stated, I don't agree with either one. Yet, you continue to ignore me and act as though you are engaged in discussion with a hyper-Calvinist.
Tigetmax, please don't take all this personally. It has nothing to do with you. You simply answered my OP and said I was wrong. So I am simply emphasizing the point of the OP. I am saying the Calvinism I am familiar with makes these claims. I'm not assigning that on to you in anyway. I'm not ignoring you, I'm talking the premise in the OP. The OP is about people or an idea that say God predestines people to hell and then calling that justice. If that doesn't apply to you, then no problem.
I will respond to the rest later, I've got to take my 4-year old girl out to a birthday party...
Strawman = Calvinist's favorite cop-out when someone (all to easily) backs them and thier doctrine of demons into a corner.
By the way, Jesus DID NOT spend more time and emphasis on hell than any other topic. Jesus mentioned Heaven 29 times and hell 18 times, and this is being generous to the hell side, since hell is actually a pagan word and concept that was never even used in the original languages of the Bible.
Yes and given the context, Jesus never speaks of hell after life but Hell on earth which is the consequence for sin on earth and regarding relationships with one another. And so the use of "valley of Hinnom" makes perfect sense.
Besides that, Jews don't believe in Hell as we know it and never did. The language Jesus used was understood by Jews as a place of embarrassment, shame or filth. Jesus did not teach a view of gehenna contrary to the belief the Jews held.
God desires and wills to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4). God can and does achieve that which He desires (Isaiah 46:10-11, Isaiah 55:11, Job 23:13), and what He desires is to save all men. God's plan is to bring together and unify all things and sum them up in Christ (Eph 1:10). God will reconcile the world (Col 1:20) though Christ. God will deliver all from the bondage of sin (Romans 8:20-21) and then every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance (an willing oath of loyalty) to Christ (Isaiah 45:22-23). Its good news for ALL people, just like Luke 2:10 says.
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Why would Jesus spend more time and emphasis on the topic of hell - more than any other topic?
Jesus never spoke about hell. Jesus spoke about Gehenna. Check the translations.
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Personal responsibility. Are you familiar with this concept?
It would not be proper, honest or truthful for me to blame God for the sin that I have committed and continue to commit. Scripture affirms that God is not the author of evil. The evil we do is just that - evil that we do.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was madesubject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
There you have it. God made us subject to depravity and wickedness! Man didn't have a choice in the matter! Men didn't have a choice to not be sinners. God made us slaves to sin. God is responsible for that.
Verse 21 confirms that God does indeed take responsibility, because He will deliver us from the bondage of sin into the liberty of the children of God.
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Look, I'm trying to keep an open mind and hear you out. It may help if you could provide some scriptural support for the assertion that God predestines people to go to hell.
LOL, well I don't claim that God predestines people to hell. You are right in that you won't find a scripture that says that. I suppose you need to ask the Calvinists who claim God predestines people go to hell.
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I'm not asserting nor have I ever asserted that God lacks the sovereign power to predestine or cause people to go to hell. I do assert that a contextual understanding of scripture reveals that God simply determines to hand over certain evil doers to their own evil desires. While I will acknowledge this to be in some sense a cooperative effort - personal responsibility belongs to the evil doer - the evil doer determined to commit unrepentant evil.
If you claim God predestines some to be saved, and doesn't predestine the rest to be saved, then implicitly God has predestined the rest to hell. Simple logic. If God hands certain evil doers over to their own evil desires, yet saves other evil doers, then it is all God's decision: God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
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How can there possibly be any justice if evil goes unpunished?
Who said evil is not unpunished? Not me. Scripture is clear evil will be abolished and the wicked will be destroyed. Wickedness will be abolished along with evil.
Just the presence of God allows for sin. We are all sinners-we are all vile, horrible human beings who is only capable of wickedness and evil (remember Noah's ark) when we do bad that is our true nature showing but when we do good that is the grace of God restraining our hearts. God restrains our hearts from doing bad, He restrains those from their true nature as He turns others over through judgment to their sinful nature thus hardening their hearts (remember Pharoh). That is God's sovereignty. He chooses who He will do this to and He has every right.
We ALL deserve hell and God would be justified in sending us ALL there but God shows His grace and mercy by keeping some even though that some deserves hell as well. Is this fair? No and I am glad God isn't fair because if He was fair then we would ALL go to hell
These are the same horrible human beings whose intrepretation of Calvanism and Bible is being followed. Why would you follow anything that these horrible and depraved humans beings would say and how would you know as a fellow horrible human being that the person had anything truthful to say. No one knows if they are elect or not, so you Calvanist are completely lost. Horrible human beings following the depraved word of horrible human beings with no clear knowledge who is elect or not. Wow, where can I sign up?
These are the same horrible human beings whose intrepretation of Calvanism and Bible is being followed. Why would you follow anything that these horrible and depraved humans beings would say and how would you know as a fellow horrible human being that the person had anything truthful to say. No one knows if they are elect or not, so you Calvanist are completely lost. Horrible human beings following the depraved word of horrible human beings with no clear knowledge who is elect or not. Wow, where can I sign up?
I can say the same about Roman Catholicism;praying to dead people, venerating Mary, purgatory, hail mary's for murdering someone....but I won't
I can say the same about Roman Catholicism;praying to dead people, venerating Mary, purgatory, hail mary's for murdering someone....but I won't
What's the difference between saying Hail Mary's for murdering someone, or simply asking God directly for forgiveness ala Protestantism? You've still taken another life.
What's the difference between saying Hail Mary's for murdering someone, or simply asking God directly for forgiveness ala Protestantism? You've still taken another life.
I was watching a 20/20 special where a hitman was sorry for what he did and was scared about his eternal destiny so he went to a priest and told the priest everything he had done. I was absolutely mortified when the priest told him to say, not 20,000,000,000, not 20,000 but 20 Hail Mary's and he would be forgiven for mudereing all those people.
I was watching a 20/20 special where a hitman was sorry for what he did and was scared about his eternal destiny so he went to a priest and told the priest everything he had done. I was absolutely mortified when the priest told him to say, not 20,000,000,000, not 20,000 but 20 Hail Mary's and he would be forgiven for mudereing all those people.
God forgives through the priest. Only God knows if the murderer was truly sorry. If he is truly sorry, then one Hail Mary would be suffiicient and you could argue, none. The murderer cannot bring the life back, can he? So I don't know what he can do for penance. I may have to bounce this question off of a priest. I am not authorized to make that call and neither are you.
God forgives through the priest. Only God knows if the murderer was truly sorry. If he is truly sorry, then one Hail Mary would be suffiicient and you could argue, none. The murderer cannot bring the life back, can he? So I don't know what he can do for penance. I may have to bounce this question off of a priest. I am not authorized to make that call and neither are you.
I don't agree and see nothing in scripture and how does the priest know he is forgiven?
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) and that they would still choose this if hell and heaven were made literally real to them in this life. That is simply NOT reasonable or logical!
