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Old 10-25-2009, 12:20 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,323 posts, read 20,055,628 times
Reputation: 2113

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You are absolutely famous for not answering a question. I asked you a question. Please answer.
Fundy you need to stop now before you make yourself look more stupid than what you are .

If you cannot understand the heart of a Father you know nothing .

When Jesus said this

9“Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

What do you see Jesus saying here Fundy apart from , He will give us what we ask ? . Do you literally think He was referring only to bread and fish ?

Last edited by pcamps; 10-25-2009 at 01:42 PM..
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:24 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,470,092 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Fundy you need to stop now before you make yourself look more stupid than what you are .

If you cannot understand the heart of a Father you know nothing .
WOW! Such a pharisee way, self-righteousness and on a Sunday but I have to ask, if one is stupid, how can one look more stupid?

Pcamps you are doing more than a fine job for the both of us as you again and again put yourself in a bind with your illogic in a thread light years beyond you with no scriptural support but how you bang it together furthermore you still haven't answered the question.

bye...bye
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,323 posts, read 20,055,628 times
Reputation: 2113
When Jesus said this

9“Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

What do you see Jesus saying here Fundy apart from , He will give us what we ask ? . Do you literally think He was referring only to bread and fish ?

What part of this verse does not support what you cannot see in my post that aggrieves you ? Is it wrong of a believer to take "how much more will your heavenly Father" to things beyond bread and fish ? Is Jesus saying He's only much more when it comes to giving us what we ask ? , or can we take from what He is saying into everything that makes God who He really is ?

Last edited by pcamps; 10-25-2009 at 12:34 PM..
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:28 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,323 posts, read 20,055,628 times
Reputation: 2113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You are absolutely famous for not answering a question. I asked you a question. Please answer.
LOL , In your eyes because you do not understand that the scriptures are discerned spiritually
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:34 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,470,092 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
LOL , In your eyes because you do not understand that the scriptures are discerned spiritually
Ya...you got me there pcamps. I ....I never knew that. Thank you as your straw-man clarified that
(2 Peter 1:21)
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:43 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,323 posts, read 20,055,628 times
Reputation: 2113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Ya...you got me there pcamps. I ....I never knew that. Thank you as your straw-man clarified that
(2 Peter 1:21)
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
So i have clearly shown you by the scripture that when Jesus said "how much more will your heavenly Father" that this statement of His proves that He would go above and beyond any of us who being evil would do.

Now i do not know if you are a Father or not , i am and i would do anything to keep my children from ET , no matter how bad they were .

So how much more will your Heavenly Father ??????????????????

How hard is this to understand ??????????????????????

Why demand from me where it say's this in the sciptures ?
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:49 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,323 posts, read 20,055,628 times
Reputation: 2113
Come on Fundy ? Don't be shy , I'm sure you have peeled those carrots and potatoes for Sunday dinner by now .

Or is this the usual ,where you go back and forth then all of a sudden cat's got your tongue ?

Last edited by pcamps; 10-25-2009 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:11 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,456 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God is love. Love does not purpose or allow people to be tormented for eternity. Love does not even create an eternal torture chamber. According to most of mainstream Christianity, either:

1. God is not able to save all people
OR
2. God is not willing to save all people

Neither of these is consistent with an all-powerful all-loving God who is the essence of love.
Do you include the contextual understanding of scripture in your view that God saves all people?

Why would Jesus spend more time and emphasis on the topic of hell - more than any other topic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Most Calvinist's I've talked to say that God predestines some to heaven, and the rest are predestined to hell.

Logically, if there is a hell, they are right.
So? Perhaps the Calvinist's to whom you refer are all hyper-Calvinist's or hold to the view of equal ultimacy. What does that have to do with me?

As stated, I don't agree with either one. Yet, you continue to ignore me and act as though you are engaged in discussion with a hyper-Calvinist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
No false premise. You can't say on the one hand that people are only saved by God's sovereign will, and then also say that people are not saved because they volunteer to go to hell. Under that system, the only reason they are not saved is because God chose not to save them. Therefore God predestined them to hell. God is ALL SOVEREIGN.
Personal responsibility. Are you familiar with this concept?

It would not be proper, honest or truthful for me to blame God for the sin that I have committed and continue to commit. Scripture affirms that God is not the author of evil. The evil we do is just that - evil that we do.

Look, I'm trying to keep an open mind and hear you out. It may help if you could provide some scriptural support for the assertion that God predestines people to go to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes it is illogical because the only reason people are saved is by God's sovereign will, and the only reason people are NOT saved is also because of God's sovereign will. If you claim people are not saved because they volunteered to go to hell, then you have suddenly overruled God's sovereignty, so now God is no longer sovereign.
I'm not asserting nor have I ever asserted that God lacks the sovereign power to predestine or cause people to go to hell. I do assert that a contextual understanding of scripture reveals that God simply determines to hand over certain evil doers to their own evil desires. While I will acknowledge this to be in some sense a cooperative effort - personal responsibility belongs to the evil doer - the evil doer determined to commit unrepentant evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Grace and mercy are not in opposition to justice. God's love, grace, mercy, justice, and judgement are all working together to achieve God's will. God is not composed of contradictory attributes nor are His actions contradictory.
How can there possibly be any justice if evil goes unpunished?
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:03 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Ah, the strawman. The silly word that Calvinists always throw out whenever they can't answer the questions posed to them.

Tigetman, I have had this exact same argument in much greater detail and length numerous times, on this site and others. I said at the beginning of a previous post that debating a Calvinist is akin to beating my head against a brick wall...well now I've got a headache and a bleeding cut above my right eyebrow. I'm going to stop before I get a concussion.

You're questions to me don't really make alot of sense from my perspective because, judging by the questions asked, you also are assuming things about my belief system, as I may have done as well. I dunno.
Does this have to be a debate?

Why not just have a discussion where each of us attempts to truly understand each other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
I'll go ahead and admit I paint Calvinists with a broad brush because basically the Calvinist belief system only varies over semantics. Like, Did God create the non-elect knowing they would reject him? Did he create them TO reject Him? Does it matter? The bottom line is God created people knowing that they would end up in Hell. They did not ask to be made to live in a miserable existence, He chose that for them. Lovely.
You seem intent on portraying hell as some sort of one-size-fits-all form of punishment. This does not appear to me to be what scripture reveals.

You also seem intent on characterizing my position as consistent with hyper-Calvinism/equal ultimacy. I've explained that I disagree with both positions but you continue to ignore me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
And does anyone really volunteer to go to hell?
Unrepentant sinners and unbelievers are basically volunteering to go to hell. They may not realize it, but they are.

If you ever wanted to have a discussion with some of these apparent volunteers, you will undoubtedly find a good many populating these very forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
WOULD anyone choose an eternity in misery if hell were made absolutely literally known to them before they died, and then heaven too, so that a REAL choice could be made?
You tell me. There were apparently people who personally observed miracles such as personally witnessing people being raised from the dead -yet still chose to disbelieve. How do you get someone who is intent on disbelieving to have a change of heart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Could I stand before God on the day of judgement on my own merit? Well, I don't understand the relation of your question to what we are discussing, and thus my thinking you are misunderstanding something, but it's not a problem to answer that. The answer is no, not the way that God chose to set Things up. I need an Advocate....Jesus Christ, who died to pay the price for my sins.
Going back to post #118.

You would then agree that you would prefer to have God's mercy as opposed to God's justice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
According to my understanding of Calvinism, God influenced my limited will to accept Jesus because He pre-elected me. Those sins I previously committed were because I was utterly depraved, according to Calvinism. Did I choose to be that way? No. But Calvinistic semantics will let God off the hook there.
You continue to try to characterize my position as consistent with hyper-Calvinism/equal ultimacy - it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
The non-elect have chosen not to run for election? Are we being serious? Why would they if they are the NON-ELECT?
It's really a pretty simple concept. If I choose not to run for political office, such as POTUS, I will not be elected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Okay, next part, you don't get my assertion. Legoman said it much better than me and you answered him with the aforementioned Calvinistic semantics. Did God foreknow, did He cause...ect ect. Blah blah.
You don't get it because you want the straw man. You prefer to ignore my perfectly reasoned and logical alternative in favor of arguing against hyper-Calvinism/equal ultimacy. Again, I don't hold to either view.
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 692,526 times
Reputation: 123
Strawman = Calvinist's favorite cop-out when someone (all to easily) backs them and thier doctrine of demons into a corner.

By the way, Jesus DID NOT spend more time and emphasis on hell than any other topic. Jesus mentioned Heaven 29 times and hell 18 times, and this is being generous to the hell side, since hell is actually a pagan word and concept that was never even used in the original languages of the Bible.
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