Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I would exclude the border states of OH, PA, IN, IL, etc. not because they border the South, but because a quintesentially 'Northern' state requires a 'North Country' which those states lack. For that matter, the southern New England states lack it, too.
I was thinking of a "North Country" too.
Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, New York, Michigan, Minnesota and I believe Wisconsin all have a North Country or a Northern Forest etc. Lots of forests and lakes and often large amounts of public lands - National and State Forests or State Parks/Conservation Lands.
Of the states you mentioned Pennsylvania sort of has a North Country, although she lacks the large number of natural lakes the other states have, it is still similar and serves much the same purpose.
Was it? NY also had its share of Abolitionists as well. This isn't even getting into the Women's Rights Movement/Suffrage, which also had a strong presence in NY.
Yes, it was. That's not to say that there weren't abolitionists in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, etc. It's just that Massachusetts was the hotbed of the abolitionist movement.
"I agree that Massachusetts is more quintessentially northerm..."
So do I. Which is why, if I had to choose a single state - which is what I was asked to do - that is the least southern - what state would you pick?
My answer - Massachusetts.
I have lived in a few places and, for the purposes of this post, here these a a the relevant ones - Up-state and New York, Eastern Long Island, (Central and Eastern Long Island - excluding the Hamptons which are more like the NY Metro Area) and I have quite a lot of experience with Staten Island - a borough with very traditional, Southern Friendly values.
Conversely, I have lived in New York City, two places in Massachusetts, and the North Shore of Long Island. I would say that these last places are pretty much the opposite of the South.
I currently live in Ohio, and a Southern Presence can be felt here - and it's too far south geographically to ever be thought of as "quintessentially northern". The same could be said of Pennsylvania. I also lived there and it shares some of the values of the South, or more precisely values that are associated with or perceived as "Southern". Ever here of Pennsyltucky?
Were my answers observational and anecdotal? YOU BET YOUR LIFE! This is City Data not my doctoral dissertation.
I think I wrote this at 4AM. I had insomnia. And no, I did no "research" to back up my answers.
I am FROM NYState, was born in Manhattan, returned their for a while in my 20s and visit frequently.
Also, I did the majority of my undergraduate work in Massachusetts. I lived around Boston also, and I visit there frequently, because my children go to college in New England - one where I attended. I still have friends in Massachusetts from my college days.
Conversely, I have lived in EASTERN LONG ISLAND (very misunderstood region) and upstate NY, while my husband was doing graduate work.
I still have friends from up-state NY (who I met during college) who now lean politically to the right.
Also, Appalachian Culture and values are alive and well in NYS. This mountain range, and it's distinct folk ways, run from Alabama to New York State.
I think I speak from sound experience.
The Eastern part of Long Island is home to many a mega church and Fundamentalist, Evangelical churches have taken a strong foot hold there.
Not just in the 1980s - NOW. As have Christian Schools. Currently operating Conservative churches on Long Island include Smithtown Gospel Tabernacle, (Church and school) The Upper Room (Deer Park, Church and School) Shirley Assembly of God, Center Moriches Assemblies of God Church and the accompanying LE Burkett Christian School and MANY Southern Baptist Churches.
There is also The Stony Brook School - a Conservative, Christian Prep school that evangelist Billy Graham chose for his far right wing son, Franklyn Graham.
New York State in not "just NYC" - in fact, most of it is NOT NYC and actually dislikes NYC and their liberal values.
I am NOT SAYING "The South is bad" (I like the South - remember, I'm from NEW YORK STATE not Massachusetts. I am just pointing out that NYS is FAR MORE that the NYC METRO AREA, and is less quintessentially Northern than Mass.
Actually, if you look at history, many Northern colleges and universities were founded by religious clergy or had a religious affiliation. Many people may not know that Harvard was founded/named after a minister. Syracuse University was and to a lesser degree now, is affiliated with the Methodist Church. My point is that to use the religious/Christian angle for something being Northern or not doesn't make sense, because history says so.
As for Upstate NY not "liking" NYC, that is not uniform across that portion of the state and is largely in relation to political dominance versus necessarily being against the city itself.
Also, the Appalachians go into MA, NH and VT as well as parts of Canada as well.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 09-23-2016 at 11:10 AM..
Yes, it was. That's not to say that there weren't abolitionists in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, etc. It's just that Massachusetts was the hotbed of the abolitionist movement.
That can be debated though, as PA was the first Northern state to pass legislation to abolish slavery.
Frederick Douglass says as much in his autobiography. Douglass became involved in abolitionism in Massachusetts. That's where the most vocal critics of slavery were.
Quote:
By the late 1820s, the national antislavery movement was centered in Boston, a phenomenon I trace to its origins through an examination of blacks’ community-building efforts in Massachusetts in the years of the early republic.
In the spring of 1840 the abolitionist movement split itself into two camps. One headed by Garrison, had its nominal headquarters in New York but was centered in Massachusetts with pockets in Pennsylvania and a lonely outpost or two in Ohio...The schism had its dress rehearsal in Massachusetts, the key issue being the viewpoints of Garrison.
It does have a greater variety of Midland dialects, true. It is also has Italian as the 3rd most spoken language.
But it has only a tiny portion where "Northern" accents are spoken. Northern meaning derived from the East Anglian Yankees which is where the North gets its dialect.
Frederick Douglass says as much in his autobiography. Douglass became involved in abolitionism in Massachusetts. That's where the most vocal critics of slavery were.
Douglass also lived in Rochester NY for a while as well and was involved in the Abolitionist movement there. Harriet Tubman lived in Auburn and Troy NY. John Jones lived in Elmira. Jermain Wesley Loguen, a minister, lived in Syracuse. All are Black Abolitionists.
It does have a greater variety of Midland dialects, true. It is also has Italian as the 3rd most spoken language.
But it has only a tiny portion where "Northern" accents are spoken. Northern meaning derived from the East Anglian Yankees which is where the North gets its dialect.
"The North" is obviously more than the Upper Midwest, New York State and New England. Is Pittsburgh not a "northern" city?
Pennsylvania is really the only state that sort of straddles all of these cultural and linguistic lines. Similar to NYC in the East, similar to the Upper Midwest around Erie, and similar to the Lower Midwest in much of Western Pennsylvania.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
