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Old 07-20-2011, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Benicar's Links:

Link 1 :

Link 2:

Link 3:


Again, if you don't trust the gov't numbers how can you trust the hospital figures? They don't check or ask for status. From your own link:
Since you only trust the government, watch the following video from a government hearing.


‪Martin County Hospital - costs for illegal immigrants‬‏ - YouTube
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:37 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,796 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
But, we are subsidizing illegal employers. The businesses that knowingly hire illegals also do not pay their required taxes. In addition, we must foot the bill for the support of their illegal workforce. It isn’t dishonesty. It’s a FACT.
The dishonesty come from doing things like I've bolded. I wasn't talking about just businesses that knowingly hire illegals--which doesn't even necessarily mean that those illegals are a net drain, btw-- when what was being discussed was generalizing claims that all businesses that employ illegals are being subsidized by the public. I believe you are smart enough to have realized that is what the discussion is about so I chalk your subtle change as an intellectually dishonest attempt to "win" some argument. Just as 1angrytaxpayer was being dishonest in his assertion that all employers of illegal aliens were being subsidized by the taxpayers. I get it though, fir whatever reason you guys need to make generalizations about illegal aliens in order to justify the irrational stance that you take that all illegals must be deported. If you don't then you might have to admit that there are illegals that are a huge benefit to our society and the hovel of cards your position is built on collapses just like the notion that dry-wall hanging will ever afford a solid middle-class existence anymore.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The OP obviously thought otherwise to start the topic. You identified the numbers and benefits specifically as the differences. The method of arrival being the same is not enough for a comparison?
What is your problem? The immigrants of the past did not enter illegally, nor were there untold millions availing themselves of our tax-funded benefits. Again, there is NO comparison.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian Ideals View Post
The dishonesty come from doing things like I've bolded. I wasn't talking about just businesses that knowingly hire illegals--which doesn't even necessarily mean that those illegals are a net drain, btw-- when what was being discussed was generalizing claims that all businesses that employ illegals are being subsidized by the public. I believe you are smart enough to have realized that is what the discussion is about so I chalk your subtle change as an intellectually dishonest attempt to "win" some argument. Just as 1angrytaxpayer was being dishonest in his assertion that all employers of illegal aliens were being subsidized by the taxpayers. I get it though, fir whatever reason you guys need to make generalizations about illegal aliens in order to justify the irrational stance that you take that all illegals must be deported. If you don't then you might have to admit that there are illegals that are a huge benefit to our society and the hovel of cards your position is built on collapses just like the notion that dry-wall hanging will ever afford a solid middle-class existence anymore.
You have your opinion and I have mine. Until we have actual data, it is all conjecture. However, I do not have a vested interest in the legalization of illegal aliens, whereas you obviously do. Therefore, I am seeking the truth, while you are seeking justification for amnesty/open borders.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:48 PM
 
951 posts, read 616,793 times
Reputation: 89
Regarding the person from Guatemala in the video Benicar posted:

Quote:
On April 5, 2000 a drunken Donald Flewellen, age 52, driving on a revoked license, borrowed a neighbor’s vehicle and was involved in a hit and run accident in Fort Pierce, Florida. This hit and run accident resulted in two deaths and left Luis Jimenez, our Guatemalan illegal, a paraplegic with brain injuries. At the time of the accident, Flewellen had only been out of jail for four months for his previous conviction of two counts of DUI manslaughter.
I'm not even sure what to say.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,011,547 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No, working hard does not excuse ANYONE for not following the rules for citizenship in this country, past or present. Does that answer your question or are you going to continue to beat the past to death as justification for illegal entry into our country today?
I'm not justifying any current path, just trying to define why we put irrational qualifiers into our stances. Individuals in that past not following the rules for citizenship ultimately were not treated, or restricted from participating in our society, any differently than those that did. Yet we base our perception on that society without any immigration rules (for the 93% percent originating in Europe) as being ideal in the concept of immigration and gaining the desired quality of immigrants!

In practice that "hard work" excused anyone, especially now as we lionize our ancestors as doing things the "legal" way in absence of specific laws on the issue. Naturalization had lesser requirements and waits, no penalties for violations, but they become the ideal citizens in our perceptions! Those assuming the rights of citizenship without going through the required process are individually "amnestied" with no consequences at all.

That sounds like they are being irrationally excused to me...
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:56 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,796 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
It’s much easier for hospitals to determine citizens from illegals. For one, a citizen will have a SSN and other ID. An illegal will not. On the other hand, there is no way for the government to differentiate between legal and illegal taxpayers. The same applies to school enrollment. I assure you, they know which students are illegal.
Thatsweak.jpg
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:01 PM
 
403 posts, read 280,796 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You have your opinion and I have mine. Until we have actual data, it is all conjecture. However, I do not have a vested interest in the legalization of illegal aliens, whereas you obviously do. Therefore, I am seeking the truth, while you are seeking justification for amnesty/open borders.
The fact that you don't have a vested interest in the legalization of illegal aliens does not imply that you are seeking the truth. This is a logic fail.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:02 PM
 
Location: East Coast US
37 posts, read 22,979 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You have your opinion and I have mine. Until we have actual data, it is all conjecture. However, I do not have a vested interest in the legalization of illegal aliens, whereas you obviously do. Therefore, I am seeking the truth, while you are seeking justification for amnesty/open borders.
No you most certainly are not. As I said previously, you are seeking opinions and news which fit nicely with your preconceived conclusion and immediately rejecting all that counters it. Anything that might force you to reconsider your stance on these people is inherently untrustworthy to you, while anything that even marginally supports your opinion is trotted out as evidence.

This thread has followed basically this path:

1. You make a factually specious assertion.

2. People challenge your assertion.

3. You ask for citations and data.

4. People provide data and citations (often from government or academic sources) to show how your assertion was incorrect.

5. You dismiss said data claiming it's erroneous, merely estimated and presented by some group with an agenda.

6(a). You change the subject to something that has little to do with the assertion you made in #1

6(b). People turn the table and ask for citations for your assertions, which you provide using random googled news articles, which provide estimated data. Using your own criteria, the very sources you're using to back up your assertions are insufficient, but of course you hold others to a standard you do not hold yourself to.

Rinse and repeat.

(Btw, at about 1:50 of the video you posted, the woman says, "...in 2007 the Florida Hospital Association estimates there was $100,000,000 in costs for illegal patient care...")

Sorry, if we're still using your standards, that's not good enough.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by huddledmasses View Post
Regarding the person from Guatemala in the video Benicar posted:



I'm not even sure what to say.
It’s simple. He was here illegally, was injured by a drunk driver, had no insurance, and cost a hospital over 1 million dollars to provide medical treatment. To show their gratitude for the life-saving treatment received, his family sued the hospital for daring to return him to his country. What else is there to say?
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