Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11
For hours now (just today .. I have done this before and gotten about nowhere) I have been trying really hard to read the posts in this forum and particularly in this thread and my brain is spinning trying to figure out if are any basic answers to basic questions that non-Muslims might need to understand Islam buried deep in all your arguments and rhetoric. I can't even figure that out and I have always been a fairly bright person so I am told. Trying to fully understand many of these posts is like doing brain twisters on steroids I think.
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There are several reasons for it.
1. Your knowledge about Islam.
2. Who is asking questions?
3. Whether the questions are designed to learn, to teach or just to take the micky out of Muslims and Islam.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
What is obvious to me is that there is such a disagreement between muslims on almost every issue that it is no wonder that non-muslims cannot and probably should not come to the conclusion that it is completely safe to trust ANY muslim about anything.
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I think that is wrong basis to not trust ANY Muslim. Someone you think is a Muslim in this forum may not be a Muslim. Therefore, a disagreement may be between a non-muslim and a Muslim.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
If you can't even agree on and understand even the basic tenets of your faith (that could affect the rest of us very negatively - the concepts of abrogation, jihad, taquiyya chief among them) then how can we?
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Basic tenets of Islam are clarified in the Qur’aan. A deeper study of the Qur’aan will show the correct aspect of each tenet of Islam. No tenet is outside the Qur’aan. One has to refer to the Qur’aan in case of any disagreement between two parties on any tenet of Islam.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
A lot of us would like to give the benefit of the doubt to fellow human beings who say they are muslims and believe in Islam (which is your right) but when something happens that is devastating from our perspective that involves those who purport to be muslim, and it is said to be 'done in the name of Allah' and Islam, and there is the sound of crickets coming from the rest of the muslim population for the most part, how are we to feel comfortable?
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Try to find out whether someone claiming to be Muslim is actually a Muslim or merely claiming to be a Muslim. A Muslim must do only Islamic actions. Someone doing actions that are not Islamic actions is actually hypocrite rather than actually a Muslim. For example, a guy enters a mosque in Quebec with a gun, shouts ALLAHU AKBAR, and kills several worshipers. Does that mean that anyone who shouts ALLAHU AKBAR before killing innocent people is a Muslim? Anyone can shout ALLAHU AKBAR. One way of media telling you of any atrocity that the guy had shouted ALLAHU AKBAR was to make you believe from the outset that the guy was a Muslim. The guy in Quebec has proven that even a non-muslim can shout ALLAHU AKBAR. The media soon stopped telling people that he had shouted ALLAHU AKBAR. It wasn’t going to serve any purpose because the guy wasn’t a Muslim.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
Christianity is not perfect by any means and there are loads of divisions within it but it is generally, even with all its sects and differences, pretty explainable and simple, and non-violent … and most sects also go by the 10 commandments which are easy to understand.
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Catholics and Protestants particularly in Ireland and Scotland hate each other to the core despite all the flowery language of love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. When a Christian claims that his God told him to invade Iraq, why should you blame God or the religion of Christianity for his action? The same applies to Muslims and Islam.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
It also truly complicates so much for us westerners that we don't natively speak Arabic and that even the translations are confusing because their meanings are often obscure or complex or depend on a million other verses we have never heard.
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Out of 1.5 billion Muslims only about 20% (one fifth) are Arabic speakers. The rest are in the same position as the westerners, but they do try harder to understand Islam and the Qur’aan.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
Islam, from where I sit, has a major problem.
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Islam, from where I sit, has no problem whatsoever but some Muslims do have major problems. I like Islam but do not like those who call themselves Muslim and act nothing like a Muslim should act.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
The noisemakers who believe in violence are winning in the media if not in your hearts.
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They are not winning; media is making them win. Media is married to them and their actions make the news that media thrives on. A peaceful Muslim is useless for the media. He makes no interesting news for the media. That’s why you won’t hear about such Muslims in the media.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
Those so-called extremists are often, it seems, the ones who have actually read and understand the Qur'aan (or however you want to spell it) and take it very literally.
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So called “extremists”?
I love my family extremely. I am extremely peaceful person in real life. Am I an extremist?
I have read the Qur’aan and understood it from beginning to the end. It has made me an extremely peaceful Muslim. This makes me believe that those who kill innocent people (regardless of their religion or of no religion) have not read and understood the Qur’aan. According to the Qur’aan, Muslims must live in peace with those who live in peace with them.
[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
Even when Muslims are being attacked by non-muslims (war situation), the direction in the Qur’aan is clear:
[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
From this side of the street that looks to me to make them the 'good muslims' - as in they adhere to and follow their faith quite carefully and fully. This is often why I worry a lot because those who suddenly begin studying the doctrines of your faith are often the ones it seems we need to watch out for. It is said that is the first requirement made of recruits to terrorist groups.
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Do you have actual experience of such ‘good muslims’ that they have read and understood the Qur’aan? Most of these headliners are dropouts from education, ex criminals, drug takers, prostitutes visitors, mentally sick, homeless or brainwashed young men. They come out of a prison, say Shahada and are out to make a name for themselves even before they have understood even one chapter of the Qur’aan.
You do not see clerics themselves (who do read the Qur’aan) queuing themselves to commit suicide and trying to go to Paradise. No Muslim well-versed in the teachings of the Qur’aan will ever kill an innocent person or commit suicide by blowing himself up. These terrorists kill even Muslims. In fact they have killed more Muslims than non-muslims. Does the media ever tell you that side of their killings? They killed over 140 Muslim children in a Peshawar school. According to the teachings of the Qur’aan, they will go to hell. If they had read the Qur’aan, they would certainly not have killed those school children.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
And overseas (perhaps here too - would not surprise me) they are now teaching that to children as young as 3 and 4, and making them memorize the whole Qur'aan, to make warriors for Islam out of them.
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I am not sure about 3 and 4 years old memorizing the Qur’aan (none of my 6 children have done that). Most memorize just the Arabic Qur’aan rather than they memorize what is said in the Qur’aan.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
And I am sure they then go on to the other books/hadiths, etc. that make up the full set of things that muslims supposedly follow/believe in. Somewhere in there, hatred and violence are being taught.
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The only book approved for Islam by Allah and His messenger is the Qur’aan. The Qur’aan does not teach initiation of hatred against others but does mention dealing with them justly even if you hate them:
[5.8] O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he conscious of Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
The majority of muslims (if they truly are peace loving) need to do something about that .. you need to present a united front that is very clear to the rest of the world or you may be forever misunderstood.
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It is impossible for the majority of Muslims to do something about it other than present their own views when asked and explain something about Islam and its teachings. They can’t control media and the powerful politicians presenting all Muslims as the security risk to you. They (politicians and the media) do this often in a veiled manner and let the masses have their own impression of Muslims. You are one of those victims of politicians and the media. This is how the masses are psychologically controlled.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
Perhaps that is all it is - misunderstandings - that are causing these major issues right now. It is in everyone's interests to try to clear them up if so.
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Muslims ARE trying to clear them up but it is not that easy for the ordinary Muslims to be heard like the politicians and the media can get their message across. Bad news always travels fast. If a terrorist tells you that the Qur’aan tells him to kill non-muslims and I tell you that the Qur’aan does not tell him to do so, the terrorist is most likely to be believed and his views made known for days in the media.
It is the politicians and the media that can do a lot to stop these terrorists by not calling them “Islamic” or “Muslims”. The action of those who kill innocent people in schools, mosques and in theatres, is never “Islamic” or of a “Muslim”. By calling their actions “Islamic” and calling them ”Muslims” is sending a wrong signal to these criminals. Such signal is telling them to carry on doing so as if they are the real Muslims and the only ones going to paradise. It is also alienating the majority. I had identified the problem caused by Bush and Blair in 2001 when they were churning out the phrase “Islamic terrorists” on a daily basis. I had said at the time that they are not going to eliminate terrorism with this kind of political mentality and ignorance about what is actually Islamic and what is unislamic. This phrase has now almost died down but other similar phrases have come to surface that are just as bad. Politicians have no clue how to stop these terrorists. Linking Islam to their actions will not stop them; only isolating them from Islam and linking them with kufr (action of hiding the truth) will make them stop their unislamic actions.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
How can I tell the good from the bad?
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A bad one will physically attack others without provocation and the good one will not attack others first. If any Muslim kills a peaceful human being, he is a bad one. If you still call him a ‘good muslim’, you have to prove from the Qur’aan that his killing of a peaceful person is justified in the Qur’aan.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
And if I cannot and therefore choose to worry about all, then I am chastised and told I am not a nice person, that I am not fair, that I just don't understand .. that MOST muslims are 'good muslims' (but see above .. even that is a problematic phrase).
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There is no cure for listening to your politicians and keep worrying. They are the ones who bomb other countries to “eliminate terrorism” but instead create more enemies; they label terrorists. Imagine a family home of 8 is bombed in Iraq, Syria or Gaza. 4 members including two elderly parents are killed in it. That would quite likely create 4 more terrorists rather than eliminate terrorism. Politicians are never going to tell you how they are increasing the number of terrorists.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
But if you ask many of those 'good muslims' already settled here in North America about whether they think that Sharia law should be instituted where they live or nationally, it seems many will say yes.
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How do you know that? Did you do a survey of all those ‘good muslims’? Ask them, why don’t you go and live where Sharia Law is implemented? I am sure they won’t like living under Sharia Law they have run away from.
Once again, it is the media that fuels these fears. To begin with, Sharia Law cannot be forced upon non-muslims even in a pure Islamic country where only the Sharia law exists. There is no way Muslims can demand implementation of Sharia Law on all in a country like US, Canada or Britain. The best they can do is some civil cases between Muslims or about Muslim individuals to be decided according to Sharia Law that does not break the existing law of the country. Muslims are required to obey the law of the country or leave the country. They cannot demand to have Sharia Law instead of existing laws of the country. Sharia Law can be applicable to Muslims only and never to the non-muslims. I am not sure why the worry about the Sharia Law when it cannot be forced upon the non-muslims.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
And the numbers seem to prove that the more muslims who are in a country, the more clout they have and the more they push for changes to that end. So, for a non-muslim, this is a conundrum.
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They will not demand changes other than whatever minor change can be allowed within the law of the country and this change is implemented only on Muslims. Such change must not affect non-muslims.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
You cannot even understand each other it seems so how can you help us to understand?
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Do the different Muslims demand different Sharia Laws suited to each one’s understanding or are you referring to disagreements in this forum between Muslims and non-muslim posters?
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Originally Posted by Aery11
I really want to. I really want to believe that all refugees (well most .. no group is totally homogenous .. I understand that) from predominantly muslim countries can and will be good citizens in a new westernized country but how can I when they often seem to lie (and that is ok by their faith) and many really don't seem to want to acculturate, just transplant themselves to a new country and begin to try to own it.
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Not all who claim to be refugees are refugees. But that does not mean that all should be kept out. One can always find out who is lying and who is a genuine refugee. Many have already become part of the country and have even served the country. I came to one of these “new” countries more than 50 years ago. My paternal uncle was already here since 1921. He even served in army during the WWII. My allegiance to the country has never been compromised. In fact, I am what I am now because of this country and its people. There are many others in the similar situation working in the best interests of their country and the life in their adopted country.
If a country does not want refugees then she should do the best to stop creation of refugees. Today’s refugees are mostly from Syria, Iraq, and Libya where they have been subjected to wars and turmoil in the country. Sweeping them all with one brush just because they Mouslem (as Trump pronounced) is not fair on many and discrimination of a whole group. This happened to Jews in the past and is now happening to Muslims.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
So ... in good clear simple English .. can you easily define some basic terms for me - beginning with abrogation (and please tell me if you believe it is important and if so why)?
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There is no abrogation of any verse within the Qur’aan. All verses are still valid. Muslims can’t go against any verse of the Qur’aan. The only abrogation mentioned in the Qur’aan is of some elements of the previous revelations (such as Sabbath for a full day). This also exists in the New Testament from the Old Testament. For example eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth to turn the other cheek and love thy enemies. In reality, it is all hate for your enemies (terrorists) and the flowery language is for show only.
Some Muslims have wrongly interpreted the concept of abrogation within the Qur’aan due to their inability to reconcile the verses of the Qur’aan. In reality, there is no abrogation within the Qur’aan. All verses are applicable and valid. None is nullified.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
Which of the passages in the books/verses, etc. in the sunnahs/hadiths, etc. that deal with Mohammed's life in
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None take precedent over the other. All verses are still applicable and none can be ignored.
In reality, Muslims were persecuted for 13 years in Mecca because they had begun to worship One God instead of 360. Once some Muslims were killed (the first martyrs in Mecca) they were forced to flee to Abyssinia first and then to Yasrib (now Madina). Their belongings in their homes in Mecca were looted as soon as they left. Muslims did not fight back in Mecca because there was no command in the verses already revealed for them to fight back. They had kept turning the other cheek until they were commanded to defend themselves by fighting back when attacked. The first three wars between the Polytheists of Mecca and Muslims in Madina were all near Madina, more than 300 miles from Mecca.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
Then please go on to explain the role of taquiyya and how you think we, as non-muslim, non-Arabic speaking westerners, can trust someone who believes that (at any time and apparently in any way) it is ok for a muslim, in the name of Allah, to lie to anyone who to them is an unbeliever/kuffar/infidel/kafir.
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Taquiyya is nothing like you have just described here. What you have described here is not taquiyya but plain lie which is not allowed in Islam. A Muslim must not lie if it is to gain unfair advantage or if it harms someone else’s right. If an innocent person is being persecuted and about to be killed for his religion and “lies” (that he is not a Muslim) to save his life it is not a lie as it harms no one but saves a life. If a criminal Muslim lies about his crime he is lying and that is not allowed in Islam.
[4.135] O you who believe! Be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor, Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) low desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.
On the Day of Judgment, even one’s tongue (if used falsely) will testify what the person had done with it.
[24.24] On the day when their tongues and their hands and their feet shall bear witness against them as to what they did.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
And if taquiyya is something we have to worry about, how can we tell if a muslim is lying or telling the truth about anything?
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Taquiyya is specific idea for an extreme situation of persecution to save an innocent life. It is not something used in ordinary day to day life merely to gain advantage and harm others. A lie is a lie in Islam. Islam haters have made too much of the idea in Islam about saving an innocent life.
It is the same idea that was used in the Old Testament by Abraham and Isaac when each had claimed his wife to be his sister save his life (Genesis 12 and Genesis 26).
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Originally Posted by Aery11
Is there any specific question or questions we can ask to determine that truth is being told when it is a muslim we are talking to? I hope there is but I cannot imagine what that might be.
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Did anyone ask Christian GWB if he was telling truth when had claimed that God told him to invade Iraq?
Bush: God told me to invade Iraq | The Independent
In an ordinary situation, a Muslim must not lie. It is as simple as that.
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Originally Posted by Aery11
And finally (for now) 'jihad' - which has become a dirty word but I can tell you that it is getting really quite difficult to believe that the violent interpretation of that concept is not getting to be the prevalent one .. and to trust that those who are not participating in that are not at least cheering on the sidelines while others do and condoning it. I get that in theory there are several interpretations of this concept - one is merely an internal struggle to understand self and faith and the other usually has more overt manifestations against all non-muslims and may take a violent or non-violent form. It seems some say one follows the other, some say there is no second meaning, some say both exist or the second takes precedence over the other. What say you?
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Generally, jihad in Arabic simply mean struggle/striving. The whole life is a struggle (jihad).
Specifically, it can be of two kinds, major and minor. Major “jihad” is one’s struggle/striving against one’s Self to prevent it from doing evil and doing only good. This is major jihad because it is ongoing throughout one’s life. It is not related to war or fighting. There are just 4 verses in the Qur’aan with the word “jihad” in them (9:24, 22:78, 25:52, 60:1). Not even one of them is about war or fighting. In context, all 4 are about Self Struggle for Allah.
Minor jihad is merely a defensive action when under attack. It is not even “jihad” but “jahad” (but of course politicians and the media is not aware of it). That’s where misunderstanding about the word “jihad” begins. “Jahad” comes into effect only during a war situation when Muslims are under attack. It is never an offensive action such as shooting children in a school, driving truck into crowd or killing worshipers in a mosque. Such jahad is only if Muslims are attacked first “because of their religion”. There isn’t even one verse in the Qur’aan that commands Muslims to initiate an offensive action against anyone.
Even in a war situation, there are rules of engagement. When the enemies incline to peace Muslims must also incline to peace:
[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
I hope the above helps to some extent.
Regards
Khalif
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