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Now about all these killings...
Although NY Times puts them in one row, I'd definitely differentiate between them.
To begin with, even the idea of separating the area of resistance into "LNR" and "DNR" was Kremlin's plan. Originally from what I understood, the locals were not planning for things to go this way - they were acting spontaneously, as one front. After separation however, things went differently for both areas. When I was listening to Dremov and Mozgovoy ( but Dremov in particular,) my jaw dropped, because I didn't expect some scenes from pre-revolutionary Imperial Russia circa 1916. I mean these people sounded ( and probably even looked - I dunno,) like the peasants from that era. I didn't even know that such thing still exists in the modern day and age. They were all about "fairness" and "equality" and Mozgovoy was saying out straight that Russians or Ukrainians - it didn't matter, what mattered was "Oligarchy and injustice." (So actually in a strange twisted way, what Maidan ( and certain part of people there) stood for, was happening in Eastern Ukraine as the result of it, while Maidan participants were passed to the next set of Oligarchs, starting from Poroshenko himself.) But anyways, these people in LNR came as extremely left-minded, charismatic and naive simultaneously, and poorly organized - that is every fighting unit seemed to be following its own commander, and someone like Mozgovoy was playing the role of enforcer of "law and order" not only in his military unit, but the whole town ( or area for this matter.) I don't believe that these people have been eliminated by Ukrainians, even for a reason that Ukrainian troops were not well-organized at that point ( among other things.) However a lot of people on FB are pointing at Igor Plotnitsky as a culprit of everything that took place in LNR in this respect. ( I question this figure ( Plotnitsky that is) myself. This is the article - ( don't know how accurate it is, but it kinda gives an idea of what was going on there.
( V. Bolotov himself quoted in that article is dead by now by the way - he died a month ago in Moscow under very suspicious circumstances.)
But that's LNR. The DNR as I've said before is a different story. That place comes across as a much better organized, with "Techies" in charge (i.e. people with Soviet technical type of education, more savvy in practical questions - be that military or civic matters,) and that place has more transparency as well. So no one in their right mind would ever consider the possibility of Givi and Motorola being eliminated by their close friend Zakharchenko - the head of DNR, who was visibly shaken at their funerals - the last one in particular; he had hard time fighting back tears.
So the question remains who/why killed Givi and Motorola. Of course Ukrainian security might be better trained by Americans by now, however the latest episode - their reconnaissance team lost on the DNR territory, blown up ( on their own booby-trap, presumably,) calling for help ( their distress calls have been captured on DNR radios,) and not receiving it, makes one question that too.
There were over 50,000 people that came to Givi's funeral, and it was the same with Motorola's funeral, that took place a bit earlier, in October. No one considers them as "war criminals" over there, so it will be difficult to convince people otherwise. I mean it's obvious.
I don't doubt that locals russians in Dombass like them.
But there are still videos of them where they violent ukrainians prisoners of war.
Motorola was russian.
So it's difficult to present them as local hero to the west. It's more simple to have some other face to represent separatism from ukraine.
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Originally Posted by erasure
So the first party to benefit from these two murders would be obviously Kiev. But interestingly enough, Ukraine's Security Service denies its involvement. So does Russian officialdom.
Yet at the same time, even if was Kiev behind these murders, it couldn't act without the help of the insiders - I can see that much. So I'll postpone my verdict - the "Trump card" and "Minsk agreement" need to be keyed in, before the whole situation will become more clear.
I agree, as far as I know Kiev didn't acheive to kill anybody with a responsability in 2 years. I find it strange that they acheive to kill the two most well know leaders in a few months.
I agree, as far as I know Kiev didn't acheive to kill anybody with a responsability in 2 years. I find it strange that they acheive to kill the two most well know leaders in a few months.
Putin understood that its necessary to remove these TV clowns. They are no longer needed and thrown into the dustbin of history like used condoms.
I don't doubt that locals russians in Dombass like them.
But there are still videos of them where they violent ukrainians prisoners of war.
I am not sure what videos exactly are you talking about, other than the one in which Givi is forcing a Ukrainian officer to eat his own shoulder straps. I don't think that you'd find anything like that with Motorola; Givi was more of showman; Motorola was more "straight to the point" kind of a guy.
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Motorola was russian.
He was never making a secret out of it. After all, why wouldn't Russians go there to help their own? It's only natural.
(But overall from what I've heard, Russian volunteers are more tolerant towards Ukrainian soldiers than local soldiers. I find that to be quiet understandable, after all the death and destruction inflicted upon them by Kiev. )
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So it's difficult to present them as local hero to the west. It's more simple to have some other face to represent separatism from ukraine.
The "other faces" could have been easily found "by the West" - the faces of regular people of Donetsk; their opinions, their stories, their destinies ruined by the "new democratic government" of Kiev. But "the West" already invented the different narration - about the "unanimous desire of Ukrainian people to join the EU," about the "peaceful and freedom-loving new democratic Kiev's government," and the "ominous hand of Moscow." So obviously you won't see "some other faces" or hear the stories of death and destruction inflicted on Donbass - such things will not make it to Western media, no matter the suffering and resistance to perpetrators. The locals are well-aware of it, that their pleas for help, their pleas to stop this assault on those that happened to disagree with the usual prescribed script of "the will of people replacing horrid, undemocratic government with democratic one," will be ignored by the rest of the world. Givi and Motorola were aware of it all no worse than anyone else in town, hence their attitude "I don't give a flying f... who is going to say what - we are "guilty by default" anyways.
So they were who they were, and that's how they became the "faces of separatism" in the West.
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I agree, as far as I know Kiev didn't acheive to kill anybody with a responsability in 2 years. I find it strange that they acheive to kill the two most well know leaders in a few months.
I find it "strange" as well. So I am looking into this whole "Minsk agreement" "Donbass is part of federalized Ukraine" thing and how well it sits with each and every player. Which makes me think about one more figure - namely someone A. Khodakovsky, the commander of the battalion "Vostok." I wonder sometimes whether his people had anything to do with these latest assassinations of Givi and Motorola.
Putin understood that its necessary to remove these TV clowns. They are no longer needed and thrown into the dustbin of history like used condoms.
Sorry to disappoint you Alex, but the role of a "used condom" in this whole scenario is ascribed to Ukraine actually, ( together with its new, "democratically elected" government in Kiev.)
Neither US nor EU have the best interests of Ukrainian people in mind. This is the country that's going to be used and abused by multi-national corporations (when/if they find anything suitable to exploit there,) and as far as EU goes - they don't need any more of that cheap labor that Ukraine is going to supply. The EU has enough of it from other Eastern European countries as it is. So the only reason the US sponsors all these "Maidans," is to use Ukraine in the ultimate goal of weakening and destroying Russia. Therefore the useful idiots with pots and pans on their heads ( i.e. Ukrainian nationalists) are happy to sell their hatred for Russia - that's about the only thing they have to offer.
As for Givi and Motorola - IF ( that is only IF) they were eliminated by Kremlin, this is rather telling a different story, that it COULDN'T use them they the way Kremlin saw it fit.
Sorry to disappoint you Alex, but the role of a "used condom" in this whole scenario is ascribed to Ukraine actually, ( together with its new, "democratically elected" government in Kiev.)
Neither US nor EU have the best interests of Ukrainian people in mind. This is the country that's going to be used and abused by multi-national corporations (when/if they find anything suitable to exploit there,) and as far as EU goes - they don't need any more of that cheap labor that Ukraine is going to supply. The EU has enough of it from other Eastern European countries as it is. So the only reason the US sponsors all these "Maidans," is to use Ukraine in the ultimate goal of weakening and destroying Russia. Therefore the useful idiots with pots and pans on their heads ( i.e. Ukrainian nationalists) are happy to sell their hatred for Russia - that's about the only thing they have to offer.
As for Givi and Motorola - IF ( that is only IF) they were eliminated by Kremlin, this is rather telling a different story, that it COULDN'T use them they the way Kremlin saw it fit.
Unfortunatly Russia cant offer to Ukraine any alternative exept MLRS attacks, TV propaganda (moto und givi) and compulsion to love ex USSR/RF. Backward country that rests only on a rough violence.
Unfortunatly Russia cant offer to Ukraine any alternative exept MLRS attacks, TV propaganda (moto und givi) and compulsion to love ex USSR/RF. Backward country that rests only on a rough violence.
Alec, UNFORTUNATELY I have to agree with you here.
Putin's Russia couldn't offer Ukraine anything good either.
(And it's not because it's based on a "rough violence" - that part is actually incorrect.)
So really, when I look at it all, Ukraine was "between the rock and the hard place" - it's true, probably Western and Central parts in particular (the Eastern part was doing better somewhat from economic point of view, because of its industrial base and economic ties to Russia.)
(the Eastern part was doing better somewhat from economic point of view, because of its industrial base and economic ties to Russia.)
These outdated manufacture dont need anyone else except the obsolete Russian. And nobody willing invest to Eastern Ukraine anymore. Its dead end for native eastern part citizens as Russia-Putin adepts
They need detour!
These outdated manufacture dont need anyone else except the obsolete Russian.And nobody willing invest to Eastern Ukraine anymore. Its dead end for native eastern part citizens as Russia-Putin adepts
They need detour!
It was still a better alternative than to wash bathrooms in E.U.
So they did everything correctly under the circumstances. They were right in every way to resist Poroshenko's attempts to impose the B.S on them. It would be smart of Kiev to cut those areas lose, but not only all these "democratic" nationalists were dumb, but I suspect their American overseers wouldn't let it happen.
They wanted the WHOLE of Ukraine, with Crimea and Donbass including, as a full fiasco for Putin AND Russian national interests.
I suspect that this scenario of replacing governments for more convenient ones for advancement of American interests is not going to work as it has been planned though. Not this time around.
They wanted the WHOLE of Ukraine, with Crimea and Donbass including, as a full fiasco for Putin AND Russian national interests.
And what is "Russian national interests"? In Aleppo, Tskhinvali or Donetsk? National interests is everywhere but not inside Russia
What your next step? Belarus?
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