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This isn't about Russia. This is about the cleptocratic maniacs in charge of Ukraine. I don't have time to verify your claim that Ukraine rents its system for gas transportation at a set price. If it's in fact true then when the current contract expires the adjustments will be made and the slop coming down to chute to the trough will dry up.
The pigs will get hungry then. One can only hope they will eat one another.
The point is Russia will soon not need Ukraine or any of the other Nazi wannabes.
Claiming Russia's declining gas exports will hurt Ukraine is what I disagreed with. The price isn't totally set but there is a guaranteed minimum of 7 billion USD for 5 years (we have 4 years to go). They won't pump anything close to enough to make the fee higher than that. So 1.4 billion a year it is. We all know that Ukraine is still using Russian gas, so 16 of that 56 is Ukraine's own purchase.
But you have to ask yourself how Russia adjusts to less money if they have a 30% volume drop on top of a 30% price drop on their largest export. No wonder they aren't doing any stimulus programs there like in the West.
Claiming Russia's declining gas exports will hurt Ukraine is what I disagreed with. The price isn't totally set but there is a guaranteed minimum of 7 billion USD for 5 years (we have 4 years to go). They won't pump anything close to enough to make the fee higher than that. So 1.4 billion a year it is. We all know that Ukraine is still using Russian gas, so 16 of that 56 is Ukraine's own purchase.
But you have to ask yourself how Russia adjusts to less money if they have a 30% volume drop on top of a 30% price drop on their largest export. No wonder they aren't doing any stimulus programs there like in the West.
Who cares DKM, this is not a thread about "Russia," but UKRAINE.
And this is what's going on in UKRAINE ( not some Russia) today, last week and so on.
They simply can't afford to pay for that same Russian gas, that is now 10 folds higher in price.
And while we are at that, where is that "proven and tested" European vaccine that you were promising for Ukrainians?
( What they are getting as far as gas deals with "European association" we can already see above, so what's about the rest - the great European markets," vaccination, "European level of life" and the rest of promises *the West* was feeding them with, while turning Ukraine into the anti-Russian project?)
Ukrainian households pay the lowest price for gas in Europe, including Moldova. Just because Putin incites protests for gas subsidies which he so BADLY needs to find buyers for his gas, doesn't mean Ukraine will turn around and spend billions of its budget to subsidize Gazprom gas. So no, nice try, but no.
Did I say Ukraine would get the vaccines by now? I don't see where I posted that. Kindly link it. Ukraine is due the vaccine in March from Covax. Maybe the some other company doses will come sooner.
Ukrainian households pay the lowest price for gas in Europe, including Moldova. Just because Putin incites protests for gas subsidies which he so BADLY needs to find buyers for his gas, doesn't mean Ukraine will turn around and spend billions of its budget to subsidize Gazprom gas. So no, nice try, but no.
Oh I see - so it's Putin that "incites the protests."
The very omnipresent and omnipotent Putin, who, I'm sure, incited the protests in Washington today as well.
Sorry we kept on missing him at both locations.
Quote:
Did I say Ukraine would get the vaccines by now? I don't see where I posted that. Kindly link it. Ukraine is due the vaccine in March from Covax. Maybe the some other company doses will come sooner.
Mhm.
You meant that Ukrainians would get that great European vaccine two years down the road, and not when Europeans ( or Americans themselves) get it?
With other words, after the masters will satisfy their needs first, the crumbs will be thrown to the servants?
Sorry I misunderstood you.
P.S. Covax will send the vaccine to Ukraine, to the tune of 4 million dosages from what I remember, as much as they send to Uganda and other African countries. So for 2 million people out of 36 million of the current Ukrainian population.
Poland promised to help if they have anything left.
Then Zelensky was bragging about buying the Chinese vaccine, which was yet another lie (that I hear now.)
So yeah.. we are getting the drift DKM.
Ukrainian households pay the lowest price for gas in Europe, including Moldova. Just because Putin incites protests for gas subsidies which he so BADLY needs to find buyers for his gas, doesn't mean Ukraine will turn around and spend billions of its budget to subsidize Gazprom gas. So no, nice try, but no.
Did I say Ukraine would get the vaccines by now? I don't see where I posted that. Kindly link it. Ukraine is due the vaccine in March from Covax. Maybe the some other company doses will come sooner.
If Ukraine can only afford the lowest prices in Europe it sounds more like Gasprom would be subsidizing Ukraine not the other way around, or at best barely breaking even? Sounds like to me the main reason Russia wants Ukraine to buy their gas isn’t to make money off of them, but to keep other companies from taking over Russian marketplace share, and thus loose their influence. After all Russia doesn’t want a hostile neighbor that is beholden to their aggressors.
Now does that negate Ukraine’s reasons for abandoning Russia as their supplier, no not really, and the effort lies in Russia’s hands to regain Ukraine’s trust, but those are the facts at this moment in time.
If Ukraine can only afford the lowest prices in Europe it sounds more like Gasprom would be subsidizing Ukraine not the other way around, or at best barely breaking even? Sounds like to me the main reason Russia wants Ukraine to buy their gas isn’t to make money off of them, but to keep other companies from taking over Russian marketplace share, and thus loose their influence. After all Russia doesn’t want a hostile neighbor that is beholden to their aggressors.
Now does that negate Ukraine’s reasons for abandoning Russia as their supplier, no not really, and the effort lies in Russia’s hands to regain Ukraine’s trust, but those are the facts at this moment in time.
It is true that Gazprom at times subsidized gas to Ukraine, particularly when Ukraine had Russian friendly people in charge. Some important facts you are missing: Ukraine's own gas production covers 2/3rds of its needs. That and that they still partially subsidize household prices are how they pay the lowest price in Europe. What isn't subsidized anymore is industrial and commercial use.
Prior to 2014, Ukraine imported a FAR greater amount of Russian gas because their consumption was nearly double what it is now. The reasons it was double is because of subsidies out of the national budget. This led to people using nearly free gas at home and inefficient (Russian)oligarch owned industries consumed great amounts as well. As anywhere in the world when utilities are subsidized it also led to profiteering by criminal groups who could buy state funded gas and resell it at market prices elsewhere.
Those days are over and the losers are: Gazprom/Russia, the oligarchs and criminal families in the east. They are working together with Russian propaganda to push this idea that they need the old way to return. It will get nowhere, despite organized protests and slick videos distributed about them on youtube.
As always when I tell the truth here, I expect the Russian rebuttal to be swift. But I don't care because like Trump world, the Russian world doesn't exist in reality but in the minds of its dwindling followers in Ukraine's east.
If Ukraine can only afford the lowest prices in Europe it sounds more like Gasprom would be subsidizing Ukraine not the other way around, or at best barely breaking even? Sounds like to me the main reason Russia wants Ukraine to buy their gas isn’t to make money off of them, but to keep other companies from taking over Russian marketplace share, and thus loose their influence. After all Russia doesn’t want a hostile neighbor that is beholden to their aggressors.
Now does that negate Ukraine’s reasons for abandoning Russia as their supplier, no not really, and the effort lies in Russia’s hands to regain Ukraine’s trust, but those are the facts at this moment in time.
Of course this would be logical to guess, that Russia was originally subsidizing the price of gas for Ukraine for couple of reasons - to have a friendly country on its border and to keep their intertwined economy ( particularly in Eastern part of Ukraine) going, since it was serving Russian interests as well.
So as long as Ukrainian government was not trying to go against Russian interests ( in this case the chain would have been yanked, and energy prices would go up,) that's how things were arranged.
Did it serve the interests of Ukrainians ( speaking about the general population here) ?
In general, yes indeed - particularly the ones that lived in the Eastern part of the country, whose industrial sector depended on Russian economy and gas supply.
Enter Americans, who don't give a damn about the well-being of Ukrainians, but whose primary goals are to hurt Russian interests.
So what logic do they follow?
Precisely the one that DKM promotes here; all those "outdated unprofitable industries" in the Eastern part of the country - the ones that tie Ukraine to Russia - should be destroyed and replaced with... with.. what exactly?
Oh not to worry ( they promise to gullible Ukrainians) - something "modern and European" ( "European" is a key word here,) something that will bring them tonnes of money, "direct ties to Europe and European markets" and whatnot.
In reality the "replacement" turns out to be the strawberry fields and other menial jobs that Ukrainians are offered in EU, in exchange for their natural resources that they have to sell now, such as timber and their agricultural lands in order to "satisfy European markets," , but that's not a big deal, right?
What becomes a big deal now however, is the energy price, and not just for the industries ( these are mostly destroyed by now,) but for the households.
Since Ukrainians for the most part were people with modest means to begin with, those gas prices subsidized by Russia ( AND Ukrainian government I'm sure,) were quite affordable for Ukrainians.
But not any longer, after the "market economy" brought by Americans settled in.
( Remember, in one of the conversations between Biden and Poroshenko, Poroshenko is happily reporting that he hiked the price of energy for consumers 100%, instead of 75% as it has been asked by Biden?)
Who cares how the Ukrainians were going to survive now; the main idea is that Russian interests has been hit as intended ( with Ukraine been cut off from Russia, the industries been destroyed, which led to smaller sales of Russian gas to Ukraine,) and it didn't cost anything to American treasury at the same time. Ukrainians themselves were paying for this double hit, because Russians were obviously not going to subsidize hostile American plans.
And there you have it, that's why people are out on the streets, protesting the energy prices they can't afford any longer.
But it's all "Putin" of course, he is the one inciting these protests.
We just don't get it apparently, like DKM does.
If Ukraine can only afford the lowest prices in Europe it sounds more like Gasprom would be subsidizing Ukraine not the other way around, or at best barely breaking even? Sounds like to me the main reason Russia wants Ukraine to buy their gas isn’t to make money off of them, but to keep other companies from taking over Russian marketplace share, and thus loose their influence. After all Russia doesn’t want a hostile neighbor that is beholden to their aggressors.
Now does that negate Ukraine’s reasons for abandoning Russia as their supplier, no not really, and the effort lies in Russia’s hands to regain Ukraine’s trust, but those are the facts at this moment in time.
I don't get it. Who is going to supply Ukraine with gas? Turkey? Russia is THE supplier in that part of the world. Am I missing something? I know Ukraine has some gas resources but they are very limited.
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